A Few Words About A few words about…™ Superman: The Movie — in 4k UHD Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Neil S. Bulk]

Neil has. I'm still confused as to how MGM was able to dig up a mag stereo master for Man With the Golden Gun that allegedly only played in London only to go mono for the Lowry master.

Whenever I've seen a 35mm print of TSWLM it's been mono.

 

[Lord Dalek]

Whenever I've seen a 35mm print of TSWLM it's been mono.

Yeah I've come to the conclusion that all prints outside of London were mono only. Not enough Dolby processors in the summer of 1977 and they were all tied up with Star Wars.

We do know that a 70mm mix of Moonraker was made in 1979 as that was reportedly the source for the old 5.1 on the laserdisc and THX dvds. No documentation exists that suggests that prints of it were made though.

 

[Spencer Draper]

That's interesting. I wonder why the mono has never resurfaced as it's been stereo surround on video since 1988 at least.

 

[Lord Dalek]

That's interesting. I wonder why the mono has never resurfaced as it's been stereo surround on video since 1988 at least.

For what its worth, the mono mix is on all the US domestic CBS Fox and European Warner video releases..

 

[Spencer Draper]

For what its worth, the mono mix is on all the US domestic CBS Fox and European Warner video releases..

Doh! That never occurred to me. I have the P/S older LD release but it's time compressed to fit one disc. I'll have to track down the older CBS Fox VHS then.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

Of course, all the superhero movies since are solely about the CGI effects.

That's one of the most perplexing comments I've ever read on this board. Every superhero movie since 1987 is "solely about the CGI effects"?

 

[Lord Dalek]

That's one of the most perplexing comments I've ever read on this board. Every superhero movie since 1987 is "solely about the CGI effects"?

They didn't even have CGI Effects in the first three Batman movies!

 

[TonyD]

They didn't even have CGI Effects in the first three Batman movies!

If you mean the Burton movies I’m pretty sure there was some cgi in the first one.

Wouldn’t the animated Batman cape shadows be cg?

 

[Rick Thompson]

They didn't even have CGI Effects in the first three Batman movies!

Given that Batman isn't a superhero, just a normal male with a lot of cool gimmicks, so what?

 

[Lord Dalek]

If you mean the Burton movies I’m pretty sure there was some cgi in the first one.

Wouldn’t the animated Batman cape shadows be cg?

Those was plain ol' cel animation.

 

[Spencer Draper]

'89 doesn't have any CG that I know of as it's all model work and practical effects. Batman Returns had CGI for the Batmobile shields, the remote control Batarang and the flying bats sequences. It was still relatively early on for CG in a major feature and if scrutinized those shots look pretty ropey on disc but far better in the release prints which are properly timed dark. (Both Burton films are far too light on all home releases and have always been so. I really hope 4K is on the way for Bats too so that a proper looking version of 89, Returns and Forever would be possible.)

 

[Dave H]

Yes, I would love to see Batman 89 for its 30th ann next year! I just watched the BD recently and it's most certainly showing its age in some respects (although not terrible for an old transfer).

 

[Colin Jacobson]

'89 doesn't have any CG that I know of as it's all model work and practical effects. Batman Returns had CGI for the Batmobile shields, the remote control Batarang and the flying bats sequences. It was still relatively early on for CG in a major feature and if scrutinized those shots look pretty ropey on disc but far better in the release prints which are properly timed dark. (Both Burton films are far too light on all home releases and have always been so. I really hope 4K is on the way for Bats too so that a proper looking version of 89, Returns and Forever would be possible.)

However much CG appeared in "Batman" or its sequels, the contention that every superhero movie since "Superman IV" is solely about CG effects is bizarre and tremendously dismissive...

 

[ghostwind]

I'm getting my 2nd Panasonic UB-820 player today, so tonight I will take a look at both the 4K and the Blu-ray simultaneously on two different inputs on my LG and report back. I can judge better that way, switching inputs fast between scenes instead of relying on memory while swapping discs on one player. Both inputs will be calibrated as best as possible - the SDR input for the Blu-ray with a 3D LUT for REC.709 and the HDR/Dolby Vision input with a 2pt grayscale (only thing you can calibrate for Dolby Vision or HDR without messing up the PQ curve and colors).

OK, so I finally had the time to look and compare the the 4K UHD disc with the included Blu-ray last night. I was running them in parallel via two Panasonic UB820 players, as I was saying in the post quoted above. Here are my impressions:

1. The 4K UHD clearly has more visible resolution and is a cleaner transfer. A lot more than the screenshots at caps-a-holic or other sites show. And this is on a 65" OLED. It's quite visible and looks very nice. On a larger screen it should be a major difference.

2. The HDR, I didn't care for. But this is important, because it depends on the display technology used. As I said before, on an LED LCD or OLED, the HDR will stand out a lot more than on a projector due to their max peak brightness levels being so much higher. So it really depends not only on taste, but on the display technology used. And it depends on each film. Here, I found it too jarring here for example. Too distracting, and it just wasn't blending in with the visuals for a 1978 film shot in the way it was.

3. With regards to colors and black levels, I found the Dolby Vision and HDR10 (I looked at both by enabling and disabling Dolby Vision in the Panasonic player), I prefer the Blu-ray. On my display, the blacks are too elevated and colors too desaturated and subdued on the 4K UHD. And there's nothing I can do to change that. Also it has a cooler look, even though I did a proper grayscale calibration for HDR/DV. The Blu-ray has more pleasing colors, and I know they are at least correct. Same with black levels. That being said, the Blu-ray is not a great transfer. I too wonder how a new Blu-ray would have looked.

 

[JWC1969]

P3 dE errors are measured @ below 100nits. The complete gamut is mapped by a display (from the mastered 1000/1100 or 4000 nits), and any change in the PQ curve naturally affects color also. Plus as I was saying, you cannot calibrate colors in HDR. You may TRY to calibrate the displays' CMS, but those 6 points will usually create even more problems and are best left at their defaults. I tried all this (and still mess around to try new things every other day) on my LG OLED, and it's just not a good thing. On a projector it will be worse.

Another thing I was going to mention, is that while HDR is a subjective thing some may or may not like on a particular disc, the display technology also plays a large part in that. On a projector you aren't really getting much of an effect, as the light output is not suitable for HDR. So it's doing heavy tone mapping. On an OLED or LED LCD, the same disc's HDR effects will look more pronounced. So it's really impossible to compare and totally subjective.

At the end of the day, if you like it, that's all that matters. If WB released an SDR Blu-ray along the 4K, it would be really easy to compare and see the differences. Comparing with a seven year old Blu-ray is not apples to apples. Or 4k apples to 2k apples

Agree that calibration for HDR is very scattershot at the moment, a real wild west as opposed to SDR because of differences in tone mapping/display, display limitations in relation to color, etc. Regarding CMS calibration in HDR, in my experience, the issue you mention is exclusive to LG OLEDs. For some damn reason tweaking the CMS makes everything worse. This goes for SDR, too. However, with other HDR displays (Sony, Samsung, TCL, Vizio, etc.) one can tweak CMS in HDR and not have everything go to hell. At least that's been my experience. When I do calibrations for HDR it's very basic: don't touch brightness, contrast, etc. because those pre-set values are mathematically tied to the display's particular tone mapping; do a 2-pt. greyscale (not 10 or 20), do CMS in displays other than LG. And that's it.

 

[Stephen PI]

Neil has. I'm still confused as to how MGM was able to dig up a mag stereo master for Man With the Golden Gun that allegedly only played in London only to go mono for the Lowry master.

"SPY WHO LOVED ME" was the first stereo Bond.

 

[Lord Dalek]

"SPY WHO LOVED ME" was the first stereo Bond.

From in70mm.com (emphasis mine):

Now they're loaded with errors (and I'm not sure if that claim that the film played in 70mm in Spain is legit) but the idea that the film was only issued in London with a stereo mix is credible when you consider the Dolby Surround track on the old blue spine dvd only uses the front three channels. And of those channels left and right are confined to music only. All sound effects and dialogue are locked in the center.

 

[Stephen PI]

From in70mm.com (emphasis mine):

View attachment 51855

Now they're loaded with errors (and I'm not sure if that claim that the film played in 70mm in Spain is legit) but the idea that the film was only issued in London with a stereo mix is credible when you consider the Dolby Surround track on the old blue spine dvd only uses the front three channels. And of those channels left and right are confined to music only. All sound effects and dialogue are locked in the center.

I don't know the fine details, but I do know the original configuration, as mixed by Gordon K. McCallum at Pinewood Studios in Theater 2, was 4-track stereo. Details of the mix, only John Hayward survives from the crew and he is now retired.
"MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN" was a mono film.
It is not uncommon to have 70mm striped prints but with mono audio. "ANDROMEDA STRAIN" was one.

 

[DP 70]

The Spy who loved me screened at the Odeon L Sq in London in
35mm four track mag , also before the feature a 70mm trailer
Of Close Encounters was shown as they had 3 projectors
It was no problem.

Also as Stephen points out some 70mm prints had mono tracks
I have read there was a 70mm print in Japan of You Only Live Twice
But that could have been mono.

 

[Stephen PI]

Also as Stephen points out some 70mm prints had mono tracks
I have read there was a 70mm print in Japan of You Only Live Twice
But that could have been mono.

Definitely mono, as I previously mentioned, "SPY" was the first.