"Upgrade" from GR-Research A/V-1s (1 Viewer)

[John Garcia]

Do you still have the link to them? I think I lost it. Yousaf may be interested in taking a look at them as well.

 

[Michael R Price]

John, that's interesting... I guess their load may be a problem for some amps then? I only heard them for a little while, driven by a Crest Audio amp. I didn't get the impression that they liked going loud.

 

[Brian Bunge]

John,

They were one of John Krutke's designs(I hope I didn't butcher the name). Here's the link:

http://home.new.rr.com/zaph/audio/audio-speaker12.html

 

[John Garcia]

The A/V-2s are a 4 Ohm load nominal, 2.6 minimum, unlike the A/V-1s, which are 8 Ohm nominal, according to Danny. Though his comment also was that they should be fine with my receiver when I asked what I should be considering to drive them since they are 4 Ohm. The 8300's specs say 6 Ohm minimum, so it may not have been totally happy with the load, despite them being fairly high sensitivity (which is why they play louder than the 1s in a typical room, thanks to the extra midbass). The MA500s also say 6 Ohm minimum, though they list a power rating at 4 Ohms as well, meaning they should still be stable at that impedance, and the individual power supplies, I'm sure, doesn't hurt either.


Loud is a relative term... In my room, they get to uncomfortable SPLs well before distortion is detectable.

Thanks Brian!

 

[Michael R Price]

John, that explanation makes sense. But if the sound is uncomfortable, doesn't that imply a detectable distortion? (Unless it actually was an uncomfortable level. )

 

[Yousaf]

Hi guys,

I appreciate the discussion, but I am out of town right now (using the hotel's computer) so I won't have much a chance to check in here until Sunday. I'll respond to everyone then, so please keep the opinions coming! Thanks!

 

[John Garcia]

The sound is still clean, it's my ears that start distorting - too loud to listen to for extended lenghts, and things start to vibrate from the sub.

 

[Michael R Price]

John,

What I was getting at is, you can't be sure what's causing that distortion. I have (once) experienced my ears causing uncomfortable distortion, and that was from my friend playing his drums in his room at a level of around 115db peak. Those levels are totally impossible with speakers of this size. I have also heard music played cleanly at around 100db continuous, full range (also highly unlikely for a bookshelf speaker) and that level, while dangerous to the ears, is not uncomfortable to me. I find my own system using Kit281s and very strong amplifiers, has compression and distortion starting to become significant at above 95db continuous. At this point most recordings start to sound unpleasant. Even though that's loud as heck, it means there is still a lot of room for improvement (as far as level dependent distortion is concerned) at lower SPLs.

 

[John Garcia]

I understand what you are saying. I haven't actually measured at what point it starts to get uncomfortable, because I won't be listening at these levels, and I can't say that there is NO distortion present, it may be starting prior to me becoming uncomfortable. It's more of a "that is too loud" kind of thing, where my daughter starts complaining "Do you NEED it that LOUD?!" I would say the levels that I listen at, even higher than my own average listening level and well below ref cal, is still below significant distortion levels. Most likely not in the 95dB range, though it varies depending on what I am listening to.

 

[Shawn Solar]

Loud like john said id a relative term. I also own av2's and for me they are loud. Even compared to my paradigms I had that were more foward and had two 6" woofers and aluminum tweeter the av2 are just as loud but not fatiguing, a plus if you listen loud. thats particualy why I chose them cause they're laid back(more neutral if you ask me) I have them on a seperate B&K amp which I also compared to a similar rotel. Though You can't expect them to pay fullrange loud a nice steep crossover and a sub at 80hz will still reduce distortion at loud levels.

Yousaf will have to decide how loud is loud enough But if it is loud he wants he may have to look into somthing larger like Micheal's 281's. I also Believe ThomasW has a nice design's for a 2way bookshelf,2way floorstander and a dipole. It was designed by Jon Marsh and him. He speaks highly of them it so they must be good

 

[Michael R Price]

Shawn, it's interesting you brought up the M8a designs because I find one of them especially interesting myself. The other configurations are great too, probably significantly better than GR or Adire, but noticeably more expensive.

 

[Shawn Solar]

I was thinking the same thing Micheal and its fullrange, although fairly big It doesn't look too hard to build. Most likely the crossovers are bit harder than the cabinets but ThomasW could probably give a better run down on the design as well as final price. The design I was most interested in was posted about a month ago. It uses the same 8inch woofers the dipole does but in a WTW configuration in a floorstander. I think it had usable bass down to 30hz-25hz which is excellent and Jon Marsh also speeks highly of the M8a.

 

[Michael R Price]

Shawn, I just posted that for fun, it's way out of this price range. The crossovers for those speakers might have cost as much as my speakers.

 

[Yousaf]

Hello everyone. It looks like my partners for my vacation wimped out on me and even though they didn't wake up until 1 pm we were back in the hotel for the night at 11. At least this gives me soem time to do some replying, I guess.


Curtis:
It's neat that Ascend does offer upgraded finishes, but I don't think I want to go with the 340. I mean, I don't doubt it offers some great performance but I have more money to spend and while I realize that if I was comparing traditional retail products with internet brands money doesn't mean much, but comparing internet brands I think I might be better off spending a bit more.


David:
Thank you so much for bringing that up! I had actually looked into Frias's speakers MANY months ago, and knew there was one brand I was forgetting but couldn't place my finger on it. I guess I'd be looking into either the B-15 or the T22, but I'll have to call him for more information. And Frias also offers a red cherry/mahagony finish, which would at least be a semi-close match for my sub.


Brian:
I thought about the tweaked tweeter network (I believe my second post) but have since decided against it. I do want a more extended high end (without being exaggerated) but at the same time I want to bring the whole presentation forward, and I don't think that adjusting the tweeter will accomplish that. It's particularly noticable on singers' voices because they always seem recessed compared to the instruments. Actually, it's like the soundstage is, instead of a straight line between the speakers, along a circle whose bulge is going outward from me. The drums and other instruments are still behind the voice but everything is pushed back in the middle of the sound stage. The A/V-2s appeal to me because I think that one thing I am looking for is the ability to excite the air more effortlessly (for a "cleaner" sound), but as John mentioned, the overall presentation is the same.

And Brian, trust me, if I could have you building another pair of speakers for me I would do so in a heartbeat. I'm sure the finish on the sub will be just gorgeous and matching speakers would be awesome, but the A/V-2 is too much like the A/V-1, the Criterion has a darker sound, and the Diluceo would be out of my price range, especially with an upgraded finish :frowning: Do you offer or would you be willing to build speakers that aren't on your website? I suppose that's something I should take up with you in email but if you want to answer here, feel free so that other people are aware as well.


John:

I will be powering the speakers with a Sony AVD-S50ES SACD player/receiver combo. I know that sounds really bad, but it's actually supposed to perform pretty well with it's digital amps. AVS Forum and I think Audioholics or Audio Asylum or some other forum concluded that they were solid units. I'll have 80 watts at 8 ohms and 100 at 6 ohms. I don't know for sure how the Sony will handle 4 ohm loads. Unfortunately, I do need to keep the receiver because as I am in college I am limited to fairly small rooms, and the heat buildup on traditional receivers or amps just gets to be too much, especially considering that I consider a 65 F room to be "just right"

I have heard of the Paradox and I think they might be a step in the right direction but I doubt I'd be able to find a pair that even remotely matches my sub as I'd be at the mercy of sellers. I have considered the Criterions and Diluceos as well...the Criterions have too low a sensitivity and too recessed a presentation (or so I'm led to believe), and the Diluceos are pretty much out of my price range.

I think the same thing would go for the Seas kit as well. They would not only be too expensive but I just can't deal with floorstanders 1) because of my small rooms and 2) they are just too difficult to keep on moving, and considering I would get an upgraded finish, the increased likelihood of me scratching or damaging the speaker is more than I care to deal with.


At this point I think I have answered all questions and pretty much commented on everything that needed commenting on Please let me know if anyone said anything that I have not addressed, because I think that if you take the time to post in my thread the least I can do is respond. At this point I think I should make a few notes (a summary and slight update, perhaps):

-I think I am looking for more extended high frequency response and not necessarily that much brighter. Some brightness would be good but I just want a more detailed, analytical sound that is still smooth and can be listened to for hours. Yes, I am on the search for the holy grail

-I don't want to give up any quality compared to my speakers. The A/V-1s are tremendous, and I will not accept brighter or even more extended if I lose overall smoothness or balance or detail. I am looking for not only different but also better.

-My price point is a slightly flexible $1000. I would be willing to stretch if I found some killer $1300 speakers or so. Upgraditis tends to hit me HARD, especially if I make compromises knowing that I could have stretched a bit and obtained something better,

-I don't need the speakers to play too low. I will have a good sub that I will be mated to these, so all I realistically expect is extension to 50 Hz or so.

-Sealed or front-ported would be nice because I don't have too much flexibility in placement, altough these speakers will be much more of a long-term investment for me so I am not willing to let my current situation dictate my long-term commitments.


I will call all the companies I did not get a chance to call (Odyssey and Ed Frias Audio)on Monday. I also hope to get ahold of ThomasW to ask him about his speakers.


So that was another monster post from me that once again wandered more than really got anywhere Take from it what you will, and once again I am VERY open to suggestions.

 

[Yousaf]

Oh boy I'm an idiot, I thought the Seas kit was the floorstanders and not those bookshleves. I do like the bookshelves though...I'll need to look into the mfurther, and the price does look right.

 

[Michael R Price]

Yousaf, I think extended high frequency response may not be the only thing you're looking for; more treble (or upper midrange) could bring the soundstage forward and sound more exciting. But still you've picked some reasonable choices for your next speakers. My advice is to get the largest, most efficient speaker you can, although doing so without sacrificing the A/V-1s quality for $1000 may be difficult. You just have to choose the qualities you think are most important since you can't have it all.

I'm sorry if you answered this before, but have you tried using your speakers actively highpassed at 80Hz or so?

 

[Yousaf]

Yes, I have had my receiver sending bass to my sub (while I still had my old one). And I know it's hard to find a speaker I might like for my price, so I'm just trying to find the one that will make the fewest compromises

 

[Brian Bunge]

Your description of the A/V-1's does not at all sound like what I remember from my old AV-2's that John has. I liked them MUCH better than the A/V-1's.



I'll build anything you want as long as I can get cabinet plans. Send me an email if you want to discuss anything in particular.

 

[Michael R Price]

Yousaf, Brian has a good point, the soundstage effect you describe could be due to room acoustics and not the speakers. I have no doubt that the A/V-1s are good enough to "disappear" and form a seamless soundstage. However if you changed your situation so that happened, the stage might be entirely behind the plane of the speakers.

 

[John Garcia]

I have no problem with soundstage or depth with my A/V-2s. The image is smack in center, as if the center channel were on, though some recordings can be vague, good ones sound like you are in the room with the band. While the AVD may have decent amps and sound, I have not found Sony's DACs to be what I would call "revealing", so your source could add to the situation, but what you describe sounds more like room and speaker position to me as well.

If you need plans, I can draw them up quick (CAD guy for many years). All I need is some dimensions.