"Upgrade" from GR-Research A/V-1s (1 Viewer)

[Brian Bunge]

John,

Are you referring to plans for speaker cabinets? I can figure out cabinet plans easily. It's just things like driver placement, bracing, etc that I need to know the specifics of. If that kind of info. is provided I'm pretty much good to go.

 

[Yousaf]

Michael:

I'd attribute it to the room but I've noticed the same effect in all 4 rooms I've put the speakers in. Admittedly, in all rooms the speakers have only been a little over a foot off the back wall, and that could be what is causing the effect. However, I have heard other people say the same thing in reviews online AFTER I formed my opinion of them, so I don't think it's only my speakers. Interesting thought though that I might be able to push everything back...


John and Michael:

Other than the odd semicircle effect, I have no other problems with the soundstage. Depth and width of the image are both good. Voices are locked dead-center, and I could swear that my monitor (in between the speakers) is outputting the sound itself. The speakers do a great job disappearing as well. It's not what I'd call a problem, it's just a difference in presentation, but I want something more forward.

 

[John Garcia]

I've noticed the 2s seemed to be a bit more picky about placement than the 1s. I do agree that the overall presentation is what you are looking for, and I understand that completely. Even in a room tailored to sound, with perfect placement, you'd still be looking for something different, and there's nothing wrong with that. For me the presentation that say, a Studio 40 gives, is not what I am looking for - too forward in the upper midrange, with an almost "dished" lower midrange. I had considered talking to Danny about a network that would notch up my tweeter at first also, but then I came from Paradigms with a much more aggressive top end. At first, I thought the 2s sounded too soft, but after spending more time with them, I came to find that I preferred the sound of the 2s.

Let me caveat the comment about the AVD. I think they are very good, and Sony makes some fine gear in the ES line. I'm using a 222ES for SACD, and I love it, but for redbook, my receiver gives a better presentation.

 

[Brian Bunge]

I've had a pair of A/V-2's w/the Sonicap upgrade in a room with a pair of Paradigm Studio 100's (v2 I believe) and noticed that they sounded much more alike than different. The 100's had a little more forward top end and obviously more bass, but for the most part they sounded extremely similar.

 

[Yousaf]

Although I suppose I should be asking this then of Sony and not you guys, but the immediate question then is whether or not the Sony can handle the 4 ohm (dipping to 2.6 apparently!) load of the A/V-2s...

 

[Michael R Price]

Yousaf, it will work, but not nearly as well as a larger amp. I used a 100 watt Audiosource amp ("stable into 2 ohm loads") and I thought it sounded pretty good until I hooked up my huge DIY amps.

 

[Yousaf]

I just thought I might provide an update...

Although I have yet to call the manufacturers, right now I am leaning toward the Ed Frias T22 for the ability to get a wood finish that is close to my sub's and then the Green Mountain Audio Europa. Both are noted for sounding very good, and I don't know which sounds better, so the wood as well as the 8 ohm impedance on the T22s make me prefer that a bit. The A/V-2s are still in the running but they're iffy. I'm still completely undecided on the Circes, so I definitely need to speak to Klaus.

EDIT: People also seem to note the low volume performance of both of my choices (they retain their sound qualities) as well as the dynamics, both of which I think will help. Also, for what it's worth, the T22s are sealed and since I have a sealed sub the whole system might be a bit more cohesive if I ever get to running the fronts full-range. The sealed design should let me put the speakers closer to the wall if need be, and given the size of my rooms for the next few years, that is a great thing. Does it seem to anyone else like I am making the right choices here?

 

[Brian Bunge]

Yousaf,

If you do chose the T22's I'd be more than happy to provide you with the names of the products that I'm using to finish your sub. At least that way you could much more closely match the finish of the sub. If for some reason they won't match it exactly you could see if they will send you unfinished cabinets and we could veneer and finish them for you. But I imagine Ed will work with you.

Also, keep in mind that placing any speaker up against the wall will affect it's sound, possibly for the worst if it wasn't designed to be placed that close to the wall. Having said that, there's no reason you can't plug the port on a speaker to see if it blends better with your sub. I've done it numerous times with very good results.

Just let me know if I can be of any more help.

 

[Yousaf]

Brian,

Thank you so much for offering. I was actually thinking of how to ask you for that because I don't know what kind of pride internet speaker builders might have and I didn't want to offend you in any way...after all, you still have my subwoofer I'll have to talk to Ed and see what he's willing to do, although the other speakers are still in the running.

Also, I don't want to place the speakers close to the walls but as far as I know rear ported speakers are more sensitive to wall distance than sealed speakers. In a room that's 8x11 that also needs to accomodate a bed, I just can't get the speakers more than a foot or so off the wall :frowning: I'm just hoping sealed speakers will be a bit better in this regard.

 

[David*RT]

Yousaf,
I know of one person (Pete Whitely)([email protected]) over at AudioAsylum.com that had the Europas and T-22's. He could not choose one over the other. He LOVED both speakers and thought they were better than $3500 JM Reynauds.

The T-22's do have more selection in finishes than the Europas .....I think your logic is very good. Either speaker you choose, you should be VERY pleased!

 

[Yousaf]

Update:

I talked to Klaus from Odyssey Audio and Ed from EFE Technologies today. Talking to Klaus, I felt really bad. I asked him about the Circes and he was very upfront with the fact that the Circes would probably not give me the kind of presentation I was looking for. However, he was just wonderful to deal with, very friendly, and was more than willing to talk and volunteer any information that could help me. Knowing that I was close to the path he was taking on a trip, he even offered to stop by me so I could have a listen. As I mentioned above, I ended up feeling bad talking to him knowing that I would not be buying his speakers, although for anyone with tastes other than mine, definitely talk to Klaus.

Ed was also awesome to deal with. As David mentioned, he can certainly talk one's ear off although in a good way What I found out from him was that the T-22s are now $1090, and $1190 if I want to go with carbon fiber woofers (which gives a better frequency response although drops the load to 4 ohms). I think I might just have to order his speakers, though I'm debating on going with the original drivers or the carbon fiber versions.

Even though I am liking the T-22s the more I hear about them, I also emailed Pete and hope to hear from him soon. Considering that the impedance advantage of the T-22s is probably lost, he'll have a good deal of sway on which way I go. After all, I like the finish of the T-22s but I like sound better, so I'll have to see which is best for me.

 

[David*RT]

Hi Yousaf,
FWIW, apparently Ed changed locations. He used to be in California but apparently he moved to sunny Arizona.

I just found out his new contact info is the following:

ED FRIAS ENTERPRISES
668 W Lee Blvd
Prescott, AZ 86303
928-778-2616
[email protected]


I'm glad to see Ed drop the price of his carbon woofers. If I remember correctly, they were a $200 premium. IMHO, I'd probably would go with the regular drivers. My extensive research led me to believe that the carbon woofers would only give you a smidge more bottom end. If you already have a sub, then the premium may not be worth it. As is, the T-22 with the regular drivers has already been rated a "giant killer". They reportedly sound similar to the JM Labs Utopia ($6k) bookshelf speakers. That's some MIGHTY competition as the JM Labs bookshelfs has been consistently rated one of the best speakers in the world.

 

[Yousaf]

Thanks David for the updated contact info, but you must be having a senior moment because you already gave me that same information in your first post

The other thing to think about is that maybe the carbon fiber woofers are still a $200 option, and he just raised the price of the base speakers. If the T-22s used to cost $990, then the carbon fiber woofers would make it $1190, which they still are. Ed could have raised the prices on the base version because of their giant-killer status, and because anyone willing to pay $990 would likely also pay $1090. I guess it makes more sense in my head than what I just wrote, but maybe you'll get the idea.

As to me wanting the carbon fiber woofers, I'll paste here what I wrote in my email to Ed:

You've really been helpful, and I appeciate that. One thing I don't think I made clear was that I would not really be interested in the carbon fiber drivers for their extra bass extension, but rather any extra clarity they provide to the rest of their frequency range. I will have a sub, so the T-36s won't be necessary...yet

...

My major concern with the carbon fiber woofers is this. I come down with ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE cases of upgraditis, especially if I know there was a possibility of me getting something better. I built my A/V-1s myself, and since I built them I have not been satisfied with them in that I am not a professional and I just don't know how much better they might be if Danny built them. Right away, I began thinking of ways to sell the speakers and purchase ones made by Danny. I'm afraid the same thing will happen here. I don't want to order the regular poly cone woofers only to regret it at soon as I get the speakers, because for only ~9% more I could have gotten the carbon fiber drivers. I don't know if swapping the drivers out at a later point is even possible, so I'd have to take the loss and upgrade to T-22CFs, which would really be a waste on my side.

Additionally, I REALLY like the look of the carbon fiber woofers...I know that would be a stupid reason to upgrade but at the same time looks are important in my satisfaction. Do you recommend that the grilles on your speakers be left off or on when using them? If on, then I might be able to deal, but if they are supposed to be kept off I think I may be swayed toward the carbon fiber cones.

...

I'm sorry for all the questions, but this time I am determined to do it right and not regret my equipment purchase at all.

 

[David*RT]

Sorry. I thought I posted his old LA information earlier. Too lazy to check the last page of this thread about what I wrote

About the clarity issue, I believe Ed told me everything is the same, with just a tad more bass.

Btw, the T-36 uses carbon woofs that is shared with the upgraded T-22. I know of one person who compared the T-36 with the stock T-22 and did a listening test with his wife's friends. While the T-36 definitely had more bass, they said the EVERYTHING ELSE was the same. The gals actually preferred the T-22 as it was smaller and more transportable (higher WAF--know what I mean? )

 

[Yousaf]

Well guys, I finally decided to do it and went ahead and ordered the EFE Technologies T-22CF speakers (the ones with the carbon fiber woofers ). It's more than I wanted to spend but I think this way, I'll finally be happy. It will be 6 to 8 weeks before I get them, but I will be sure to put up a review then.

It does feel a bit weird that I am not going with any of my original choices, but hopefully this works out for the best.

EDIT: Now I know that the difference is only minor, but one of the things I thought about was that the T-22CFs reach down to 40Hz vs. the T-22's 45 Hz. Considering I will be crossing these over to the sub at 60 or 80 Hz, and that in general, speakers should be flat down to one octave below the crossover frequency, the T-22CFs might just give me that extra edge.

 

[RISUG]

Yousaf, wow, you're a man on a mission. I hope the new speakers exceed your expectations by leaps and bounds.

Me?, I'm still in AR Hi-Res nirvana. And like Terence you played a part in helping me realize my acoustic heaven.
Here's hoping you've found your utopia.

 

[David*RT]

Congrats Yousaf.

You made an exceptional speaker choice. Please post a review when you get them!

If you don't like them, PM me to take them off your hands. I'll somehow find a way to fit them into my eclectic speaker collection.

 

[Yousaf]

Thanks Reese I'm really glad you're liking the AR15s.

And David, unfortunately, it looks like 8 weeks it is until they get to me :frowning: This is kind of frustrating...I ended up ordering a sub, and then speakers to rebuild my system. While I like the personal touch of one-man (well, two in Brian's case) operations, waiting is killing me. From start to finish on both parts it looks like this will take 13+ weeks for everything to get to me. I wish people could go into hibernation

 

[Yousaf]

Well I got my T-22CFs so expect a review in a couple of days...

 

[David*RT]

Great! Hopeyou like them and meet your needs.