Warner Brothers is making a mistake (1 Viewer)

[mskaye]

I don’t know if I would classify it as a mistake, but the biggest shock (to me) about Warners is that they have yet to release a Weissmuller Tarzan film on Blu-ray. Much less the entire series, which deserves it immensely in my book. I don’t know if the problem is with the elements, some weird PC mindset, or that they just don’t think these things would sell in the 21st-century. But it sure is a shock to me.


Gary “in my wildest dreams I would’ve never thought those films would still be missing on Blu-ray by 2022“ O.

All of the above.

 

[Gary OS]

All of the above.

I sincerely hope that’s not the case. If so, I guess I can give up on ever thinking I’ll have a cleaned up Blu-ray of Rocky Mountain either.

 

[Camps]

Thread's getting off track. If you look at the first post, it was about the lack of movement by WB toward releasing any of the balance of their classic 3D product. 2D wish lists should be ported over to the HTF's existing Warner Archive thread, IMHO.

Then again, I think we've received our answer: WB will never release the remaining WB and RKO classic-3D movies on 3D blu ray. I defer to the moderators whether to keep this thread alive....

 

[rdimucci]

Is there a way to use such a headset without seeing a virtual auditorium? Whenever I go to the theaters or watch something at home, I try for as dark an environment and close seating choice as possible because I want to see the screen and only the screen - seeing a fake auditorium is a dealbreaker for me.

 

[mskaye]

Most of the people in their mid-50s I know have no idea who Jane Russell is. They grew up on Star Wars.

If I didn't study film or work in "this thing of ours" I probably wouldn't either. So let's say barely no one under 70 at this point and call it a day.

 

[JoeDoakes]

You are not stating another obvious alternative.

Warner Bros. has proven their ability to preserve and restore their 3D holdings internally.

I believe they’ve already released one or two.

Mr. Feltenstein needs not pick up a phone and call anyone except Warner’s own archival staff and MPI.

My recollection of these discussions previously is that under studio cost accounting, the cost assigned to an in company 3D release would be significantly more than the cash cost of using 3DFA. WA also might be concerned if use of an outside facility to cut costs inspired cost consciousness for their other releases. Personally, I most would like to see the Popeye and Bugs Bunny cartoons. Then Phantom of the Rue Morgue. I have limited interest in the other WB owned 3D products other than some of the shorts.

 

[Camps]

My recollection of these discussions previously is that under studio cost accounting, the cost assigned to an in company 3D release would be significantly more than the cash cost of using 3DFA. WA also might be concerned if use of an outside facility to cut costs inspired cost consciousness for their other releases. Personally, I most would like to see the Popeye and Bugs Bunny cartoons. Then Phantom of the Rue Morgue. I have limited interest in the other WB owned 3D products other than some of the shorts.

Thank you, Joe, for bringing the thread back to the topic raised in the launch post. But I'm afraid we're not likely to get anywhere.... at least for the time being.

For the record, I'm a big fan of George Feltenstein. With the launch of Warner Archive he not only unearthed dozens of catalog treasures for us but he nearly singlehandedly spurred other studios to dig into their own vaults.

That said, a number of treasures remain unavailable to us: the remaining classic 3D titles. (FWIW, at the top of my wish-list are Phantom of the Rue Morgue, Second Chance, Dangerous Mission and Son of Sinbad.)

And given that streaming or cable VOD are no longer options for enjoying classic 3D at home, that leaves the blu ray format. So when we ask, "Why, if WB was able to bring us such nice 3D blu rays of House of Wax and Dial M a decade ago, can't they get us blu rays of some of these other titles now?" And the response is, "No, it would be too expensive for them to do that, and there's not enough of a market for these obscure titles for them to justify it."

Sound familiar?

I'd been among those bleating on this and other boards for years about Universal's untapped treasures. Now, thankfully, via Universal's partnership with 3DFA we have 3D blu rays of It Came from Outer Space and Revenge of the Creature among others; via Universal's partnership with Kino Lorber we've seen dozens of 2D treasures unearthed.

WB's existing cost structures and policies prohibit our seeing these remaining classic 3D titles on blu ray. Even if George were so inclined, he can't fight City Hall if WB management is not in a position to allow or enable different approaches to the problem. All I can hope is that the new Zaslav regime, once it's fully in place, will be less myopic.... and that they consider what the other studios have done successfully to get their 3D titles into consumers' hands.

 

[Robert Harris]

Thank you, Joe, for bringing the thread back to the topic raised in the launch post. But I'm afraid we're not likely to get anywhere.... at least for the time being.

For the record, I'm a big fan of George Feltenstein. With the launch of Warner Archive he not only unearthed dozens of catalog treasures for us but he nearly singlehandedly spurred other studios to dig into their own vaults.

That said, a number of treasures remain unavailable to us: the remaining classic 3D titles. (FWIW, at the top of my wish-list are Phantom of the Rue Morgue, Second Chance, Dangerous Mission and Son of Sinbad.)

And given that streaming or cable VOD are no longer options for enjoying classic 3D at home, that leaves the blu ray format. So when we ask, "Why, if WB was able to bring us such nice 3D blu rays of House of Wax and Dial M a decade ago, can't they get us blu rays of some of these other titles now?" And the response is, "No, it would be too expensive for them to do that, and there's not enough of a market for these obscure titles for them to justify it."

Sound familiar?

I'd been among those bleating on this and other boards for years about Universal's untapped treasures. Now, thankfully, via Universal's partnership with 3DFA we have 3D blu rays of It Came from Outer Space and Revenge of the Creature among others; via Universal's partnership with Kino Lorber we've seen dozens of 2D treasures unearthed.

WB's existing cost structures and policies prohibit our seeing these remaining classic 3D titles on blu ray. Even if George were so inclined, he can't fight City Hall if WB management is not in a position to allow or enable different approaches to the problem. All I can hope is that the new Zaslav regime, once it's fully in place, will be less myopic.... and that they consider what the other studios have done successfully to get their 3D titles into consumers' hands.

You are conflating non-analogous situations. Restoring black & white productions (whether monocular or 3D) with color productions on 70 year-old Eastman 5248 are worlds apart.

Take a single example - Rue Morgue. Presuming a reasonable case scenario of simply a problematic Y dye layer, one would be scanning about 520,000 frames in 4k. Add recombine, color, professional digital clean-up (the output files look like the original film) and positioning correction - and you’re looking at probably an investment of $500k. In comparison Revenge of the Creature scanned about 242,000 frames with no recombine.

Logistically, this is probably not the time for anyone to be pushing for projects that will not cover their costs.

I’ll ask a similar question to that of last week.

If WB responded to your plea, and offered a 10 year domestic license - let’s say…

You cover all costs, in addition to a $50k license fee. They allow you to release a 3D Blu-ray. They own all new elements. You get to recoup your costs before paying them a royalty.

Would you take the offer?

How many discs do you think you’d have to sell before breakeven?

 

[Camps]

You are conflating non-analogous situations. Restoring black & white productions (whether monocular or 3D) with color productions on 70 year-old Eastman 5248 are worlds apart.

Take a single example - Rue Morgue. Presuming a reasonable case scenario of simply a problematic Y dye layer, one would be scanning about 520,000 frames in 4k. Add recombine, color, professional digital clean-up (the output files look like the original film) and positioning correction - and you’re looking at probably an investment of $500k. In comparison Revenge of the Creature scanned about 242,000 frames with no recombine.

Logistically, this is probably not the time for anyone to be pushing for projects that will not cover their costs.

I’ll ask a similar question to that of last week.

If WB responded to your plea, and offered a 10 year domestic license - let’s say…

You cover all costs, in addition to a $50k license fee. They allow you to release a 3D Blu-ray. They own all new elements. You get to recoup your costs before paying them a royalty.

Would you take the offer?

How many discs do you think you’d have to sell before breakeven?

All fair points. And at least we're having the conversation, aren't we? That's all anyone can ask.

 

[RolandL]

Vincent, don't worry, it WAS the Criterion! Lol

View attachment 152716

 

[Todd J Moore]

I don't necessarily think anyone is suggesting WB allow the 3DFA and/or KIno to release 3D blu rays of their titles. However, farming out the restoration of the 3D titles to 3DFA so the WA could release it might be the way to go since the 3DFA can do marvelous things on lower budgets.

The other question is how marketable are the titles? This is a general problem perhaps with a lot of vintage 3D titles. There are some very famous ones like Friday the 13th Part 3 and House of Wax and a fair number of ones that are forgotten by all but 3D buffs. This goes for the 80s as well as the 50s titles. I suspect Kino has run up against this with some of their 3D releases, in particular the Paramount titles. 3D buffs might know about Those Redheads From Seattle, but modern audiences not so much. Guy Mitchell and Teresa Brewer are very good singers, but they aren't exactly on the recognition level of Bing Crosby and Rosemary Clooney. This isn't to suggest that Those Redheads From Seattle is a bad movie, either. It's not. I rather enjoy it myself and pop it on every so often. But it's a forgotten movie.

For the record, I'm not suggesting that the 3DFA shouldn't have restored Those Redheads From Seattle or that Kino shouldn't have released. I'm delighted they did. I'm glad that Kino has taken some of the chances they've taken and hope they continue to. I'm merely using the film as an example to illustrate my point.

This is true of other decades. Sure, people know Andy Warhol's Frankenstein and the 3 Part 3 in 3D movies from the 80s, but how many people outside of 3D buffs remember Domo Arigato or The Man Who Wasn't There? Hell, I often forget Domo Arigato. Or at least I try to. Awful, awful movie.

This brings us to Warner's holdings. Phantom of the Rue Morgue would probably sell since it's a horror film and horror films always sell. The two Vincent Price titles--Son of Sinbad and Dangerous Mission--would also sell if a big deal was made of them being Vincent Price movies. Ditto Mitchum in Second Chance. They might get away with it for The Moonlighter (which would be the cheapest to restore since it's black and white) if they advertised it as having the stars of Double Indemnity in it. They might even get away with The Bounty Hunter because of Randolph Scott (Sony might get away with The Stranger Wore a Gun for the same reason). The rest of them? Probably not.

Look, I'm desperate as anything to see Arena in 3D. It's the only 50s 3D title to have a showing in the last 20 years that I didn't get to see in 3D. But Arena's biggest names are Gig Young and Harry Morgan. Outside of The Twilight Zone, I don't know much about Gig Young and I suspect that can be said for a lot of people. And Harry Morgan, while arguably more famous because of Dragnet and MASH probably wouldn't be a big enough draw to sell that movie.

Charge at Feather River and The French Line are big deals for 3D fans, but I suspect a little less so for the general public. And who outside of 3D fans has ever heard of Devil's Canyon or Louisiana Territory? For that matter, who has seen Louisiana Territory?

I'm not saying they shouldn't restore and release them all on 3D Blu Ray. But we've already established that in house restorations would not be profitable enough on any of these films and the only way to do them that might be profitable would be the 3DFA. So sadly, I don't necessarily think it will happen. I'd love it myself. I'd buy everyone them. But, how many of them would the general public buy?

 

[Douglas R]

And given that streaming or cable VOD are no longer options for enjoying classic 3D at home, that leaves the blu ray format. So when we ask, "Why, if WB was able to bring us such nice 3D blu rays of House of Wax and Dial M a decade ago, can't they get us blu rays of some of these other titles now?" And the response is, "No, it would be too expensive for them to do that, and there's not enough of a market for these obscure titles for them to justify it."

I'm sorry to state the obvious but WB first released those 3D titles when manufacturers were still making 3D capable TV sets. The potential 3D market must be diminishing exponentially each year as people have to replace their old TV sets so why would WB spend money on such a decreasing market? I don't know how long my TV set will last but it may be only a few years more, after which my 3D Blu-ray discs will be useless.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I'm sorry to state the obvious but WB first released those 3D titles when manufacturers were still making 3D capable TV sets. The potential 3D market must be diminishing exponentially each year as people have to replace their old TV sets so why would WB spend money on such a decreasing market? I don't know how long my TV set will last but it may be only a few years more, after which my 3D Blu-ray discs will be useless.

I think the projector market has shrunk too. People are downsizing their homes and OLED pricing has decreased.

 

[Todd J Moore]

My 3D TV is 10 years old so I decided to futureproof it by getting a 3D projector. I'll probably get a second projector to have on hand. No way I'm losing my ability to watch my 3D movies.

 

[RolandL]

It doesn't matter if you don't have a 3D TV as the the 3D Film Archive also includes an anaglyphic 3D version for 2D TV's. I have tried them on my 2D TV and they look fantastic! So much better than those 3D broadcasts we had in the 80s.

 

[Robert Harris]

I don't necessarily think anyone is suggesting WB allow the 3DFA and/or KIno to release 3D blu rays of their titles. However, farming out the restoration of the 3D titles to 3DFA so the WA could release it might be the way to go since the 3DFA can do marvelous things on lower budgets.

The other question is how marketable are the titles? This is a general problem perhaps with a lot of vintage 3D titles. There are some very famous ones like Friday the 13th Part 3 and House of Wax and a fair number of ones that are forgotten by all but 3D buffs. This goes for the 80s as well as the 50s titles. I suspect Kino has run up against this with some of their 3D releases, in particular the Paramount titles. 3D buffs might know about Those Redheads From Seattle, but modern audiences not so much. Guy Mitchell and Teresa Brewer are very good singers, but they aren't exactly on the recognition level of Bing Crosby and Rosemary Clooney. This isn't to suggest that Those Redheads From Seattle is a bad movie, either. It's not. I rather enjoy it myself and pop it on every so often. But it's a forgotten movie.

For the record, I'm not suggesting that the 3DFA shouldn't have restored Those Redheads From Seattle or that Kino shouldn't have released. I'm delighted they did. I'm glad that Kino has taken some of the chances they've taken and hope they continue to. I'm merely using the film as an example to illustrate my point.

This is true of other decades. Sure, people know Andy Warhol's Frankenstein and the 3 Part 3 in 3D movies from the 80s, but how many people outside of 3D buffs remember Domo Arigato or The Man Who Wasn't There? Hell, I often forget Domo Arigato. Or at least I try to. Awful, awful movie.

This brings us to Warner's holdings. Phantom of the Rue Morgue would probably sell since it's a horror film and horror films always sell. The two Vincent Price titles--Son of Sinbad and Dangerous Mission--would also sell if a big deal was made of them being Vincent Price movies. Ditto Mitchum in Second Chance. They might get away with it for The Moonlighter (which would be the cheapest to restore since it's black and white) if they advertised it as having the stars of Double Indemnity in it. They might even get away with The Bounty Hunter because of Randolph Scott (Sony might get away with The Stranger Wore a Gun for the same reason). The rest of them? Probably not.

Look, I'm desperate as anything to see Arena in 3D. It's the only 50s 3D title to have a showing in the last 20 years that I didn't get to see in 3D. But Arena's biggest names are Gig Young and Harry Morgan. Outside of The Twilight Zone, I don't know much about Gig Young and I suspect that can be said for a lot of people. And Harry Morgan, while arguably more famous because of Dragnet and MASH probably wouldn't be a big enough draw to sell that movie.

Charge at Feather River and The French Line are big deals for 3D fans, but I suspect a little less so for the general public. And who outside of 3D fans has ever heard of Devil's Canyon or Louisiana Territory? For that matter, who has seen Louisiana Territory?

I'm not saying they shouldn't restore and release them all on 3D Blu Ray. But we've already established that in house restorations would not be profitable enough on any of these films and the only way to do them that might be profitable would be the 3DFA. So sadly, I don't necessarily think it will happen. I'd love it myself. I'd buy everyone them. But, how many of them would the general public buy?

There are some general tenets of proper film restoration that would prohibit these films from being done on a minimal budget.

If prime elements are being accessed, all work must be performed at 4k resolution, with final 4k .dpx files.

I believe in these basics of restoration. If I owned the IP, I would not permit the work to be performed by any entity outside of a venue normally used by the studios.

 

[uncledougie]

My 3D TV is 10 years old so I decided to futureproof it by getting a 3D projector. I'll probably get a second projector to have on hand. No way I'm losing my ability to watch my 3D movies.

The pity of it is the standards developed for 4K displays didn’t include allowing for 3D films to be played even at only 1080 HD resolution. I suspect most households don’t logistically allow for installing projection screens, and all the older television sets that had 3D capability are aging themselves out of existence as they’re replaced by UHD sets. If 4K standards had included 3D capabilities, this would be a whole different conversation. It’s hard to blame the rights holders for not remastering and releasing 3D Blu-rays when it’s a constantly diminishing market even for aficionados who’d buy the discs if they had playback capabilities, and would spend the money necessary to buy replacement displays if only they were available.

 

[TallPaulInKy]

My 3D TV is 10 years old so I decided to futureproof it by getting a 3D projector. I'll probably get a second projector to have on hand. No way I'm losing my ability to watch my 3D movies.

It's my understanding, as long as you stay away from 4K, that most any modern TV these days will display 3D, they just don't come with the glasses anymore.

 

[Ross Gowland]

I thought you needed special players and tellies.

 

[Camps]

If 4K standards had included 3D capabilities, this would be a whole different conversation.

Amen.