Under $1000 Subwoofer Review Thread (1 Viewer)

[Craig Chase]

Brendotunes - I am pretty anxious to check out the EP-350 as well. In Canada, it's really attractively priced. Based on the experience with the EP-800, and knowing the new EP350 uses the same driver (much longer throw than previous generation units), it will be fun to test out.


It has been on order for about 4 weeks now, but since I ordered it in a custom oak finish, it's taking longer than usual.

 

[Brendostunes]

I found one of the Klipsch we ca order through Best Buy up here. They have a link to another distributor that has
$720CDN. Black Friday sale with a free wireless dongle. Regular $1100. Not an instore option up here
While the EP350 is $995CDN. regular. Gotta love google

Still makes me want an EP350 in my set up, as I find my smaller subs more mono than musical.

Would the Klipsch be more of a {musical}oriented sub? As opposed to a almost low drone note.
Personally I find my SVS PB1000 more of a mono, thump thump than a mix of bass notes.

 

[Craig Chase]

Brendo - A musical sub is hard to define. One note, as you experienced with the PB-1000, is a sign that the tuning point of the sub, along with room gain, is causing one frequency area to dominate others in your room. The Klipsch will be, set up properly, quite musical. The EP-350 may even be a better choice, because it's tuned to about 28 Hz. This meshes well in small rooms for not only a linear response curve to about 20 Hz, but also for mid bass slam. Mid bass is where we hear articulation.


The lower the tuning point, especially on a relatively small 10 inch driver, the harder that drive must work at, say, 40 Hz.

 

[Robert_J]

I found one of the Klipsch we ca order through Best Buy up here. They have a link to another distributor that has
$720CDN. Black Friday sale with a free wireless dongle. Regular $1100. Not an instore option up here
While the EP350 is $995CDN. regular. Gotta love google

Still makes me want an EP350 in my set up, as I find my smaller subs more mono than musical.

Would the Klipsch be more of a {musical}oriented sub? As opposed to a almost low drone note.
Personally I find my SVS PB1000 more of a mono, thump thump than a mix of bass notes.

To expand n Craig's response, have you plotted the frequency response of your sub at your listening position? There is free software and all you have to do it buy a calibrated mic. That's a small investment compared to buying another sub.


When I installed my subs, they sounded great on music. In fact, they sounded like most of the booming cars that drive by my house (mine included when my wife is driving). I plotted the frequency response of my subs and I had a 14db peak at 54hz. That's great if I want to compete in an SPL drag race. I bought a Behringer Feedback Destroyer to flatten the response.


Once you look it up you will wonder how a piece of pro audio gear does this. In manual mode, the BFD is a 7 or 8 band digital parametric equalizer. I was able to zone in on the 14db peak and a few smaller ones and apply manual valleys matching those peaks. Now my subs are + or - 3db from 120hz to 17hz with usable bass to 15hz. They sound great on everything from an acoustic bass to sci-fi explosions. I have a total of $150 invested in this.

 

[Craig Chase]

Some good news .... The Axiom EP-350 has shipped and Hsu Research would like the VTF-3 Mark V added into the mix, so I ordered one this afternoon.


Both these subs have names that are over a decade old, and both are completely different from their ancestors. This is going to be a lot of fun!

 

[inzer585]

double post

 

[inzer585]

I get the feeling that when its all done you're going to say the EP350 is your favorite of the bunch? I'd like to see how that EP800 with dual 12"s and 800watts compares to the Rythmik F25, dual servo 15"s (lot more surface area) and 800watt servo amp. Rythmik is very well known for pure sound quality. And its $1000 less than the Axiom. I'm sure the Axiom subs sound good but its the price difference to the competition that gets me. Why the premium?

 

[Craig Chase]

I get the feeling that when its all done you're going to say the EP350 is your favorite of the bunch? I'd like to see how that EP800 with dual 12"s and 800watts compares to the Rythmik F25, dual servo 15"s (lot more surface area) and 800watt servo amp. Rythmik is very well known for pure sound quality. And its $1000 less than the Axiom. I'm sure the Axiom subs sound good but its the price difference to the competition that gets me. Why the premium?

I would be happy to test the Rythmik directly against the EP-800, and also would welcome others to come to a GTG at our place to participate in blind testing. Consider yourself invited. We can do instant A/B switching between two subwoofers, and can do so with a variety of high end speakers, including a pair of Legacy Signature SE's.


As for your "feeling", I don't deal with feelings: As with the other subs, the EP-350 will be calibrated using Audyssey XT-32, auditioned, and results posted. The response curve at the listening position will be posted, as with all the other subwoofers. The EP-350 will get the same beating as did the SVS PC-2000, Klipsch R-115SW and soon the Hsu VTF-3 Mark V.


In regards to pricing, there are a variety of reasons, especially country of origin. Rythmik imports its subs from China, Axiom builds all their own components in Canada, including their own drivers, in terms of subwoofer products. "Buying American" typically costs more than buying Chinese. The purchaser has options, which is always a good thing. Some people prefer to "buy local". Others don't care. I am not in a position to make value judgments in these matters.

 

[inzer585]

I would be happy to test the Rythmik directly against the EP-800, and also would welcome others to come to a GTG at our place to participate in blind testing. Consider yourself invited. We can do instant A/B switching between two subwoofers, and can do so with a variety of high end speakers, including a pair of Legacy Signature SE's.


As for your "feeling", I don't deal with feelings: As with the other subs, the EP-350 will be calibrated using Audyssey XT-32, auditioned, and results posted. The response curve at the listening position will be posted, as with all the other subwoofers. The EP-350 will get the same beating as did the SVS PC-2000, Klipsch R-115SW and soon the Hsu VTF-3 Mark V.


In regards to pricing, there are a variety of reasons, especially country of origin. Rythmik imports its subs from China, Axiom builds all their own components in Canada, including their own drivers, in terms of subwoofer products. "Buying American" typically costs more than buying Chinese. The purchaser has options, which is always a good thing. Some people prefer to "buy local". Others don't care. I am not in a position to make value judgments in these matters.

Sorry for coming off as rude if taken that way. But the feeling part is going by what i've read it just seems you will lean toward Axiom and I guess I won't be surprised to see you post that you prefer the Axiom to the others.


Axiom does have factory over in China and only subwoofer drivers are made in Canada. Fit and finish, quality and performance are all top notch from Chinese made brands. Rythmik has just as strict of standards as products made in Canada.


SVS also does a fantastic job on its drivers. The PC2000 has that awesome custom made Peerless driver with pretty high standards. Plus and Ultra drivers are made in Ohio.


I'd like to see a pair of HSU ULS 15MK2 stacked against the EP800. I've read somewhere that you referred to it a reference quality? Seaton SubM I think is universally praised as Reference around many boards.

 

[Craig Chase]

This may also come across as rude, but I don't make value judgments based on what is posted about products by others. The mere idea of making conversation based on "things I read/heard" on other forums is not exactly credible.


I have done extensive auditioning to JL Audio Gotham, The Submersive, JTR's Captivator, Velodyne's DD-18, SVS PB-13 Ultra, the list is over 100 subwoofers. I won't comment on something I have not heard, and I do not care who made the product. All I care about is sound quality.


Yes, the EP-800 is reference quality. I invite anyone to visit to hear what it does with bass. I have, after spending 4 months listening to one, done research regarding how its performance was achieved. The EP-800 also has nothing to do with this thread.


If you have any direct knowledge based on your own listening tests to any of these products, please post your findings based on your own audition, including room size, a response curve at the listening position, and program material being used. This input would be most welcome.

 

[Craig Chase]

Good morning ... while waiting for the arrival of the next two subs (Hsu VTF-3 Mark V and Axiom EP-350), some information about conversations with lead people from both companies is in order:


Hsu Subwoofer .... After a nice conversation with Kevin from Hsu, it was decided the VTF-3 Mark V was the best choice. It has the same driver/amp as the VTF-15 Mark II and the ULS-15 Mark II. It fits the under $1000 delivered (as does the ULS-15), and can be operated in both sealed and ported modes. The eq curve is different in sealed mode versus the ULS-15, but with Audyssey XT-32 applying 512X filters, we should have a comparable in room curve to what the ULS would deliver. Basically, it's like testing three subs, as it's very close to a VTF-15 Mark II as well. The VTF-15 will extend a bit deeper and have a bit more output (1 dB in the 16-25 Hz band) than the VTF-3, but it should, for the purpose here, be looked as a test on all three.


On paper, it looks like a world beater for the price range ... 600 watt RMS amp, 2000 watt peaks, 15 inch driver, large enclosure. Variable tuning options.


Axiom Subwoofer ... Andrew from Axiom is pretty proud of the changes he made to the EP-350. It has a longer throw driver, stronger amp and tuning at about 27 Hz, with typical in room response to 22 Hz. His design goal was to make a subwoofer that would fit into a smaller space than most competitive subs. In terms of size, it's less than half the size of the Hsu. In Andrew's words, it is designed to deliver high output to the low 20's, a linear response, and articulation to match some very expensive subs. As with all Axiom products, measurements and blind listening tests were extensively used in the development. It will "possibly" fit into spaces the larger subs won't, for décor reasons.


On paper, it looks like a stiff challenge in this price range.


Within 3 weeks, both subs will have been wrung out, with response curves posted and lots of listening done.


And once these two subs arrive, look for a pic of all 4 subs together. I would also love to get a Rythmik Sub here - particularly the L22 dual 12 inch unit. It's perfect for this price range, and the dual 12's in a sealed box look like quite the competitor. They will be getting an email today asking about this thread.

 

[inzer585]

The HSU will definitely be a awesome sub. HSU well known for years for music sound quality and with a good high quality 15" back by a powerful amp and a large enclosure all for $850 shipped. Seems like a awesome deal.


The Axiom only has a 250watt amp and a -3db of 26hrz. Axioms graph shows it dipps around 35hrz though. Definitely a small room sub.


On paper and from many forum and facebook uses the SVS seems to be one of the reference subs in this range for sure.

 

[Craig Chase]

For those attempting to follow this thread, please accept my apologies for the recent interruptions. This thread is not about what people have read on Facebook. It's about real world testing on subwoofers, with a lot of expense and effort put into it.


It's also not about picking a "winner", nor will there be a "pecking order" decided.


Instead, each sub will be dialed in using a receiver one can purchase for under $1000. When doing this, I do what most users would do at home - run Audyssey, then conduct testing. There are no other outside equalizers being used. The reason is to make this as close to the normal experience for the enthusiast who wants great bass without a lot of hassle.


We all have priorities. Some don't care how large a sub is. Others need more compact. A look at subs of varying size is important to most people.


This is also about fun. By the time this thread runs its course, I will have spent over $10,000 purchasing all these products. Most will go to charity when we finish with them - VA hospitals, children's hospitals ... all can use theater areas for patients. If anyone has a suggestion for a particular hospital that can gain from this, please PM me.


To follow up on an earlier promise, I dropped Rythmik a note today, and hope to hear back from them this week. Other suggestions are welcome, too.

 

[inzer585]

For those attempting to follow this thread, please accept my apologies for the recent interruptions. This thread is not about what people have read on Facebook. It's about real world testing on subwoofers, with a lot of expense and effort put into it.

No apologies need. What would you like people to post about? The SVS PC/PB 2000 is a reference sub in this price range, its included in this discussion and you reviewed it right? Well many people on facebook and other forums have praised this sub and it has pretty high marks.


What your doing is not real world testing. Your testing subs to see how they perform in YOUR room.


I say auction off the hometheater stuff you plan to donate. Think they could use the money more than a display theater. If not it would be great to see if Axiom would donate a few entry level hometheater packages to some hospitals.

 

[Dave Upton]

Craig has been very up-front that this testing is in his room and at his expense to help others get an idea of what they can expect. Real-world is in a home theater, not an anechoic chamber.


Please try to keep the discussion friendly - there's no need for argument here.

 

[Robert Crawford]

No apologies need. What would you like people to post about? The SVS PC/PB 2000 is a reference sub in this price range, its included in this discussion and you reviewed it right? Well many people on facebook and other forums have praised this sub and it has pretty high marks.


What your doing is not real world testing. Your testing subs to see how they perform in YOUR room.


I say auction off the hometheater stuff you plan to donate. Think they could use the money more than a display theater. If not it would be great to see if Axiom would donate a few entry level hometheater packages to some hospitals.

The tone in your post is somewhat hostile, please refrain from going in that direction.

 

[Craig Chase]

Let's explore this concept of "the subwoofer test only telling how the unit will perform in my room". We all want great bass, and many of us do not want to have to spend time and money buying measuring software, microphones ... etc ...


We want it to be simple to accomplish. The good news, is ... we can do this. Any receiver with Audyssey MultEQ, MultEQ XT or MultEQ XT-32 can deliver excellent bass in almost any room.


The room we are using in these tests is one of the more difficult rooms one will encounter. It's large at 25x24x8.5 feet, and has no concrete walls for floors to augment bass.


As we will see, Audyssey will give us a flat response in this room to the lower limits of the sub's ability. This is one reason why a response curve is being posted on each sub as tested. The Axiom EP-350 will have its curve posted this week.


This flat response curve shows how Audyssey is "taking out the room", in terms of the sub's performance. I have actually done measurements with the sub in the middle of the room, and still gotten a flat curve.


Of course, we still want to find the best location for the sub ... but even here there is good news: Most subs, especially a single unit, will perform well in a corner, out of the way.


We will do a lot of exploring on this as time goes on. But the idea is this ... let's catalog how we can great great bass in ANYONE's room.

 

[schan1269]

Let's explore this concept of "the subwoofer test only telling how the unit will perform in my room". We all want great bass, and many of us do not want to have to spend time and money buying measuring software, microphones ... etc ...

We want it to be simple to accomplish. The good news, is ... we can do this. Any receiver with Audyssey MultEQ, MultEQ XT or MultEQ XT-32 can deliver excellent bass in almost any room.

The room we are using in these tests is one of the more difficult rooms one will encounter. It's large at 25x24x8.5 feet, and has no concrete walls for floors to augment bass.

As we will see, Audyssey will give us a flat response in this room to the lower limits of the sub's ability. This is one reason why a response curve is being posted on each sub as tested. The Axiom EP-350 will have its curve posted this week.

This flat response curve shows how Audyssey is "taking out the room", in terms of the sub's performance. I have actually done measurements with the sub in the middle of the room, and still gotten a flat curve.

Of course, we still want to find the best location for the sub ... but even here there is good news: Most subs, especially a single unit, will perform well in a corner, out of the way.

We will do a lot of exploring on this as time goes on. But the idea is this ... let's catalog how we can great great bass in ANYONE's room.

Don't forget AntiMode. As not everyone is going to buy a Denon/Marantz product.

And again...proper speaker placement trumps "room correction" software.

I'd send you my $5 box that contains a $150 Infinity 12" driver and my Krell 500w monoblock...but shipping would be ridonkulous.

 

[Craig Chase]

Sam ... And the forum in general .. Is there any interest in seeing response curves comparing Audyssey vs. the Antimode 8033 Cinema? At $349, the Antimode 8033 Cinema looks like a nice alternative for a variety of reasons, including, as Sam mentioned, not wanting to purchase a new Ausyssey based receiver.

 

[Sam Posten]

(Other Sam responding here, I am interested in Schans answer too!)


I think you are digging into a niche of a niche personally but if it sounds like fun to you go for it.


Personally I am not a big fan of 'objective' measurements for HT gear, they rarely tell me anything interesting. I'd rather reviewers stick to what their experience is like and at what price point. That gives the fanboys on all sides of a market segment a lot less to argue about tho. =p


I'm not really sure what you hope to provide to anyone but yourself with such measurements tho, maybe I just don't get it. Can you try to illustrate how anyone else might use such data?