The Eternal Angelriffic Thread (Merged) (1 Viewer)

[Derek Miner]

*sprinkles Mountain Dew*

Exactly where are you sprinkling that Dew? Once it turns sticky, it's a bitch to clean up.

Awesome Angel episode last night, BTW. Took a while, but they finally got me three or four (new) episodes back...

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

Wesley must have some mystical recuperative powers or damn lucky to survive not only the throat slashing, but earlier the stabbings in his guy. Makes you wonder...

 

[Andrew Beacom]

A really good episode last night. I wish they wouldn't pull all that arty crap during the fight scenes though.

I didn't see the end coming and it still doesn't make sense to me. I don't quite get the "why"? Sure Wesley kidnapped his son but he had the right intentions. Apparently Angel doesn't care about that. I also don't get the pillow. If Angel really wanted to kill Wesley I'm sure he doesn't need a pillow.

That last scene just doesn't fit for me. Unless it's a red herring. Angel convincing everyone that he is out to kill Wesley without actually doing it. Like the job he and Buffy did on Faith in S3. This would allow Agel to have a recovered Wesley as a wildcard when the W&H/Sahjahn showdown/payback happens. The the rest of Angels Scoobies will stop relying on Wes and Angels enemies are likely to forget about Wes.

 

[Rich Malloy]

The last scene was either a feint by Angel, or simply poor writing in the service of a sensational ending. If Angel really wanted to kill Wesley, he could've done it in a second, and there's no way a couple of orderlies could've pulled him out of the room.

So, either there's more to it (why would Angel fake a killing rage against Wesley?), or it's just a lame attempt to trump up an exciting finale at the expense of any internal consistency and verisimilitude.

 

[Jason Seaver]

I don't think Angel really wanted to kill Wesley, but I don't think he was faking it, either. He's angry, and he justifiably feels betrayed - how much better off would Wesley be if he'd just reported what he'd found, rather than trying to handle it himself? It struck me that Angel wasn't planning that until he entered the room, but then his anger got hold of him.

Could he have made a more efficient try? Yeah, but he's still basically human - subconsciously, he wanted to get stopped. Because as much as Angel wouldn't shed many tears over Wesley's death, he knew he'd probably need the guy's help - not to mention Cordy's, Gunn's and Fred's - before all this was done.

Just a couple nit-picky things - apparently the all-knowing hamburger wasn't as all-knowing as one might have hoped, giving Wes the same false information. Also, Sah-ja seems a lot less interesting now that he's been given corporeal form. Maybe it's just me, but a time-traveling mastermind recruiting allies to do his dirty work throughout history seems like a much cooler villain than a generically tough sociopath (because, let's face it, that urn's gonna hold him about as long as the orb held John Bly).

Also, I was sort of confused by something in the White Room - the little girl seems to refer to Sah-ja as "them" as opposed to "him". Foreshadowing or me being thick?

 

[Ian_Fisher]

I thought the ending made sense. Angel may understand why Wesley did what he did, but he is still a father suffering through the loss of his son, and Wesley was the man who kidnapped his son and handed him over to Holtz (although unintentional). There is a lot of grief there, and I think right now he does want to kill everybody that he holds responsible.

As for the pillow; I agree, there are a lot more efficient ways to off somebody, but have you ever been so mad at somebody that you wanted to strangle them? (If nobody else has, then I’d better check into a clinic!:b) You don’t want to go in there and snap their neck, you want to go in and just shake the life out of them. I thought the attempt to kill Wesley with a pillow just showed his rage. I thought it was a lot more effective then if Angel went in there and was going to stab him or something like that. (IMHO of course!)

All in all a GREAT show for a GREAT series. I also kinda liked the artsy, under-cranked fighting. I mean, it’s been used A LOT lately in motion pictures, but you don’t see it too often on television. I thought it made what could have come off as a rather run-of-the-mill battle into something that was a lot more fun to watch. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want EVERY fight to use this technique!

Edit...forgot something I wanted to add
Now, about the all-knowing hamburger and his prediction. I remember everybody speculating how the oracle was careful to say "The father will DEVOUR the son." Everybody was saying that with Angel drinking Connor's blood, that he has in fact devoured the son. Is that what we are thinking the oracle was talking about when he insisted that it was going to happen and nothing could stop it?

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Sahnjan is part of a race, and they turned the whole race non-corporeal. Hence "them"

 

[Rich Malloy]

So, no one thinks Angel's "attack" on Wesley was a feint of some kind? Just a "my heart's not really into it" kinda murderous rage?

Maybe so. But poor writing, if so. Even though it's abundantly clear (even to Angel) that Wesley was acting with the best of intentions, I could still understand Angel's rage simply because it would appear that his son is now lost forever and all due to Wesley's presumptiousness (he didn't have the right to decide for everyone based on information only he had). But then, if that's all true, then Angel's rage was real. And if he wanted to make Wesley suffer (as opposed to a quick snap of the neck, Jenny Calendar style), then suffocation via pillow is certainly not the way to go - I can think of very few milder means of murder (say, the forced ingestion of pills). And, further, if Angel's rage was real, then how could two human orderlies pull him off of Wesley so easily and drag him bodily from the room as though he was just some regular schmoe?

No, I think this was either a feint by Angel (most likely), or some very bad writing in the service of a sensational ending (hope not).

 

[Andrew Beacom]

Rich,

So, no one thinks Angel's "attack" on Wesley was a feint of some kind? Just a "my heart's not really into it" kinda murderous rage?

I actually mentioned I thought it was a red herring earlier in the thread.

If it's not a feint of any kind then the pillow and the orderlies were bad writing. I would have bought Gunn using a stake to convince Angel to leave Wes alone.

It's certainly much more interesting as a feint.

 

[DeborahK]

I actually was wondering myself if Angel's trying to smother Wes was a feint, especially because the little preview thing they did at the end implied all was well between A & W. OTOH, Angel seemed so very angry and upset. Perhaps the anger was real but the attempt to kill Wes was fake? I dunno, but I loved the episode. The whole thing was so amazingly intense.

A quick nit-picky question, tho': I was under the impression that Sah-ja and his kind could be contained in jars because he/they are ethereal. So, how did he get sucked into one when he was solid? I have only watched the episode once, so perhaps I missed the detail that explains this.

I also have the following ANGEL question having to do with blood: Does "Sleep Tight" imply that Angel grew aggressive and crude because he was drinking Connor's blood specifically or simply because Connor's blood is human blood as opposed to animal blood? We know that Angel drinks animal blood, but in the past we have also seen him with supplies of human blood, e.g., in his fridge in "Angel," in "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been" last year, and also when Cordelia hands him a glass of blood (can't remember the episode name) and tells him that it's "O Pos." None of this ever brought out the behavior we see in "Sleep Tight." Yet when I rewatched some of "Sleep Tight" last night the implication seemed to be that it was the fact of the humaness of Connors blood mixed with the animal blood that was making Angel so twitchy. Any takes on this? Not signifigant, I know, but hit has been bothering me.

Deborah

 

[Jason Seaver]

I think part of it was that it was Connor's blood, specifically - note that Angel says Connor started to smell like food, not the whole group.

I'm inclined to throw out that line of Cordelia's, since they've stated much more clearly that Angel tries to avoid human blood like a sober alcoholic avoids booze - from his line to Doyle in "City Of" about having had a craving since feeding on Buffy in "Graduation Day" or how he practically slavered when Harmony was going on about how yummy it was.

A quick nit-picky question, tho': I was under the impression that Sah-ja and his kind could be contained in jars because he/they are ethereal. So, how did he get sucked into one when he was solid? I have only watched the episode once, so perhaps I missed the detail that explains this.

Bugged me, too, but I don't recall them specifically saying those urns could only contain ethereal whatever-Sahjan-ises. Call it lazy until they use that to explain why he was able to bust out ("well, yeah, the urn'll hold a noncorporeal whatever-Sahjan-is..."). I wonder how Holtz knew to get one when it took Angel a hard-won trip to the Exposition Room to find out.

 

[DeborahK]

Thanks, Jason S. --that makes a lot of sense. Clearly I would not have been so confused if I had seen "City of," but I joined Angel after the first season was completed and have only seen a few of those first season episodes. Which brings me to a gripe I have with WB or whoever: Now that ANGEL is in its 3rd season, could we not occassionally get a repeat from an earlier season of the series? Some of us have not seen any of the oldest episodes and it seems to me that it would make more sense during rerun time to sometimes show a two year old epi rather than one we have just seen a couple of weeks previously.

Deborah

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Rerunning from a previous season would be contractual headache. Rights to air the eps are usually based on year, or at least the number of times they can air an ep.

 

[DeborahK]

Jeff,

I know this is true, but they usually get the rights to show episodes 2 or 3 times before they lose the them. I saw what was rerun of ANGEL season one from mid season through summer and a number of the S1 episodes, including the "City of" pilot were never repeated -- at least not in that time period. So I think they still have the rerun rights to at least a few of them.

Deborah

 

[DavidDeane]

A quick nit-picky question, tho': I was under the impression that Sah-ja and his kind could be contained in jars because he/they are ethereal. So, how did he get sucked into one when he was solid? I have only watched the episode once, so perhaps I missed the detail that explains this.

I won't presume to guess what the writers had in mind, but this detail is not that hard to explain if we assume Sah-ja is like an Efreet or Jinn who can be imprisoned in jars, lamps, bottles, etc. They exist in our world and in other worlds simultaneously; as such they can take on corporeal form in the sense that they can interact with our world, but they still have the option to become incorporeal at will.

What the jar does (I am guessing) is it prevents them from being corporeal, whilst also trapping their incorporeal essense. The curse made these demons incorporeal, preventing them from interfering with our world. This also presumably prevented them from being trapped in the jar, since the jar is of our world. Once Sah-ja was corporeal again, he also resumed his old weakness vis-a-vis the jar; he could be corporeal at will, but was also vulnerable to being trapped by the jar again.

The jar actually sounds like a better method of permanently putting a demon out of commission (so long as the jar does not fall into the wrong hands), whereas the curse sounds like a blanket solution to an entire group of demons. It solved the general problem of these demons interfering with our world, but did not solve the particular problem of one very resourceful and determine demon, Sah-ja.

 

[DeborahK]

Hi, David,

Thanks, that makes a certain amount of sense. I quess I missed the detail of them only being able to be "jarred" if they were corporeal and thought instead that they could only be contained when they were ethereal. Silly me.

The jar actually sounds like a better method of permanently putting a demon out of commission (so long as the jar does not fall into the wrong hands)

Or does not fall over and break during an earthquake! This story takes place in southern California, after all, and we sure do get 'em here.

Deborah

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

I'd assume it's something along the lines of 'the jar can trap demons. Immaterial demons are hard to trap, but this jar happens to be one of the ways you can do it. It can also trap material demons, but really really strong chains can do that too.'

If he's immaterial, how did he perform the ritual to free Holtz? It involved, as I recall, throwing some sort of dust around, then he smoked a cigarette. How did he get the ciggy? How did he pick up the dust? Hell, how does he eat? Or wipe his... well, I guess that's not a problem if he can't eat.

 

[DeborahK]

If he's immaterial, how did he perform the ritual to free Holtz? It involved, as I recall, throwing some sort of dust around, then he smoked a cigarette. How did he get the ciggy? How did he pick up the dust? Hell, how does he eat? Or wipe his... well, I guess that's not a problem if he can't eat.

Shayne,

As a friend of mine used to say, sometimes it doesn't pay to look into things too deeply.

Deborah

 

[Lance Nichols]

Man, could you ever feel the pain and rage boiling off of Angel on last night's episode. It showed the "best" of Angel for some time.

Over in the Buffy thread there is the argument of Spike/Buffy, and can Spike be redeemed. It's been mentioned that many have forgotten that Spike is a vicious, evil killer. That is, he is a vampire.

After last night's episode, I am thinking people should remember that about Angel as well. Yes, Angel has a soul, and is predisposed to goodness, but he is still a vampire, and has a well of darkness that is pretty deep.

Don't know about the Wesley bit at the end. I want to think it is a feint, but I also believe that Angel is really, and truly hurt and enraged over Wesley's actions. Cordy better come home soon, she is needed to balance Angel before he falls to far into the darkness. Fred and Gunn help moderate Angel, but it is really Cordillia who understands and complements Angel. More so then Buffy ever can or could, I think. Hearsay, I know, I know, beat me for it later.

I wonder if Angel will ever be able to forgive him, or understand all that Wesley had been going though. This year we had seen Wesley being harangued via phone by his father, nearly kill someone he cares deeply for in a fit of rage (Fred), lose the girl he was falling in love with, and find a prophecy that points to one of his best friends killing his new born son. Pretty heavy load for a man to carry.

 

[Jason Seaver]

If he's immaterial, how did he perform the ritual to free Holtz?

Hell, how does he speak? I mean, you've gotta be somewhat solid for your larynx to do all those nifty thing with airflow that result in comprehensible words.

(And don't even get my started on invisibility. Just don't. )