svs or hsu subwoofer? (1 Viewer)

[Robb Roy]

Craig,

Thanks! I don't know if you've noticed, but I've been pretty quiet the last couple of months, especially when it comes to anything controversial. We started talking some time in December about how I might be able to help them with some projects. I'm not an SVS employee, but I can't deny I've gone from enthusiastic customer to biased participant, and it's important to me and SVS that anyone reading my posts, especially when any impropriety might be construed, know that.

-Robb

 

[Jack Gilvey]

As I've stated before, there are subjective ways to determine your personal favorite sub.

 

[paul clipsel]

Rob my doubt is with the 'no listening'. Hence you can have no knowledge of how they sound because you have done 'no direct comparing'. I think the in home trial period is a must have no matter if its B&M brand or one of these direct market brands.

My only real problem is not with the brand loyalty that seems to boil over in forums, but its with the forum recommendations of get one based on data figures only. Most people here seem to buy based on no personal direct comparison and that seems short sighted when these subs don't sound the same.

PC

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Sounds like a plan. Again, the right data can be very helpful in deciding what sub is best. Only you can decide your favorite, though.

 

[paul clipsel]

Jack you mean only you can decide which one sounds the best.

PC

 

[Jack Gilvey]

...to you. Your favorite. Not everyone will want the measureably best/accurate sub, depending on their own personal opinion on what bass might sound like.

 

[paul clipsel]

No you choose for yourself.
My favorite has nothing to do with what sounds best to you. Of course if you prefer to listen to something that doesn't sound the 'best to you' then thats totally your choice. Much like our individual music choice or the food we choose to eat, the whole aim of a subwoofer is what sounds best to each individual. Thats why you need to listen to all the contenders, or else you will never know what actually sounds the best to you.

PC

 

[Robb Roy]

Again, you're back to auditioning every last subwoofer on the planet, in every conceivable location, with every conceivable furniture placement. The consumer has to start somewhere, and odds are starting with the product with the best objective measurements (along with factoring in those personal preferences like size, budget, and appearance) is the shortest distance between the buying decision and a sub the consumer loves.

What I don't get is how a recommendation based on personal preferences that can't be substantiated, rather than objective data, makes sense. I'd have to beat myself with a stick if I ran around saying "get the cherry wood one -- the cherry wood one sounds the best to *me*."

-Robb

 

[paul clipsel]

Not a chance, personal preference recommendations hold no weight and anyone who thinks they do is shortchanging themselves. Lets be clear I am not saying objective data is useless information, but much of the objective data is either superficial, very flawed or worse of all misinterpreted and misrepresented.

PC

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Well said, Robb. This is getting repetitive. Again, there are subjective ways to determine what you think is your favorite sub.


I'm afraid you've been missing my point, but this isn't going anywhere. Enjoy your sub and continue to learn.

 

[Robb Roy]

Paul,

You're quite right that much of the data is misrepresented and/or poorly understood (some of it can be quite difficult to get your brain around). I'm not sure any of it is "superficial", but some will have more audible influence to the casual listener (FR and THD vs. GD, for instance). I would say the right thing to do, then, is to educate people about the numbers, and to collect as much objective data as possible about potential subwoofers, rather than to experiment with subs ad infinitum. Careful reading of Nousaine's, Yates', Mullen's, and Gilvey's publications/posts will save the consumer a lot of time and money (though, admittedly, if you have tons of spare time and money, buying a bunch of subs and sending them back, selling them cheap, what-have-you would be a blast).

-Robb

 

[paul clipsel]

Rob/Jack I believe audio is more subjective, you believe its objective. So what we differ, its what makes the world go around and its not a life threating decision anyhow. The vast majority of buyers are purchasing audio only to 'please us' not to say on forums that it measures this way or that way and 'be dammed' if it sounds best. For the life of me I simply could not understand the mentality of buying something that measures a certain way yet I don't like its sound in a direct comparison within my room.

You can believe in the idea of perfect sound reproduction, but even perfect recordings don't exist except in theory books. Having heard many of the money no object high end systems with so called perfect measurements, it becomes clear that personal sound preference takes priority even if you had wads of cash to design and/or buy so called perfection. After much listening over many years clearly the most overlooked factor is variable room acoustics, variable setups and poor source material. I think the people who sit around in forums and debate the sound superiority of .008 THD vs .05 THD numbers are chasing the end of the rainbow for a pot of gold that simply doesn't exist. In audio reproduction your greatest filter of 'right' is your ears.

PC

 

[Dave Nelms]

Paul-

I agree totally with your last post. That is what IMHO should be promoted more.

Dave

 

[WayneO]

While true, this mantra is repeated ad nauseum and would negate the purpose of these forums entirely. If that's the best you can do, why bother posting. Getting opinions from people with like minded interest will help you filter out 80% of the product that isn't worth audition. I would bet 95% of the people who audition SVS and Hsu keep them, so that's a pretty good recommendation that is repeated for a reason.

 

[Robb Roy]

That's when you use the return policy and go from there. It's OK to have a preference for something with less than perfect measurements (as you point out -- nothing has perfect measurements) and no one would argue keeping a sub you don't like. You have to have a place to start, however, and objective data, not the unsubstantiated personal opinion of some guy on a forum, is the best place to start. Based on your own statements that only the individual's own ears should be trusted, why would anyone listen to anyone else's opinion of what sounds best? That leaves the objective data.

-Robb

 

[paul clipsel]

Wayne
No forums are a great source of information such as operational issues, reliability issues, company support issues, upcoming product etc etc. I also like a hearty yet friendly debate with people chasing the non existent dream of perfect sound reproduction.

Robb
Like a friend recommending a restaurant I take his bragging about the place with a pinch of salt. At least until I actually eat there and sample it for myself, then and only then can I give my opinion. We are all individuals and obviously our audio tastes vary greatly, so understandably I take audio opinions with the same pinch of salt. Thats not to say you can't construct a short list of contenders via personal opinions (internet and/or mag reviews). But I think the real travesty :frowning: in audio is that 98% of people will never know if they would have preferred another audio component all because they didn't/couldn't listen to all the better contenders. I also find the old wives tale of subwoofers all sounding the same really very amusing.

PC

 

[Adil M]

PC,
I think you just like salt.

 

[Lyle_E]

Thank you, I have been reading this and that about Sub brand "X" and "Y"

The only brand I can get my grubby little hands on is Klipsch... The store I got my setup from only offers one meal - they are letting me take home a KSW-12 to try out this weekend -A little on the spendy side for me..
I asked them if they ever heard of SVS? they replied "SVS whats that" Maybe if I can find a few different subs that I can get my hands on... who knows...

I would love to try out the SVS or some HSU model.
are there any authorized B/M dealers of these brands?

I am a victim of lack of choices

I thank every one for at least making me step back and look for other options that I might like.

Now on with my search..

 

[Edward J M]

There is absolutely no question that objective data can be a very reliable and consistent indicator of sound quality.

And the converse is (obviously) equally true - sound quality is a very good predictor of objective performance.

I have a subwoofer currently running in one of my systems which after a fairly brief initial demo I already know will test and measure very well.

Given the good sound of both products, it is certainly no surprise that both Hsu Research and SVS subwoofers objectively test out very well. And Jack Gilvey is certainly correct when he states that subwoofers are engineered devices. Yes, predictive software programs can be a good starting point, but the best designers are building prototypes, testing, measuring, modifying, and remeasuring until they meet the design goals and objectives for that model.

Poh Ser Hsu and Tom Vodhanel regularly run ground plane sessions on their products, evaluating criteria like frequency response, deep extension, distortion, bandwidth linearity, dynamic output, power compression, phase response, etc. Anyone who claims "numbers don't matter", while at the same time supporting products from either of these fine companies, is fooling himself. Because Hsu Research and SVS subwoofers are very much a product of the "numbers".

And the same holds true for any number of other fine subwoofers on the market. I can't ever recall a critically acclaimed and well respected subwoofer that measured poorly - the two concepts are quite simply mutually exclusive. And while there are certainly differences in sound quality between the top subwoofers on the market, they all start at a very high baseline.

It's ironic - many of us could immediately cite several examples of universally acknowledged POS subwoofers. Now, put yourself into the hypothetical position of having to explain to a newbie why a particular subwoofer is junk. What are the first things that spring to mind?

I thought so......

 

[Robb Roy]

As to narrowing things down based on recommendations, I couldn't agree more. You'll find the subs that measure the best often get recommended the most (like Hsu and SVS). I could swear I've said that before.



As has been stated -- of course they don't sound the same -- they don't measure the same.

I would say it's not 98% of people, but 100%. I doubt anyone on the planet has done an in-home audition of every contender. Have you? You repeatedly state someone won't know what's best for them until they hear it, and that everyone's tastes are different. You also repeatedly state, flatly, that the Hsu is the better subwoofer, and not just in this thread. When someone asked what the best sub for under $500 is, you, with no evidence, offered two Hsu subwoofers (one of which even matched the requested criteria). That's a mighty high opinion of one's opinion, if only their own (and apparently your) opinion matters.

When the Krix's objective measurements weren't particularly impressive, you chimed in with how glad you were to have a Hsu. What happened to that pride in objective performance?

I really do respect your opinion, and you have made a great choice in subwoofer. I really have no desire to get into a flame war, but your logic escapes me. Perhaps Jack is right and this will just go in circles...

-Robb