Subwoofer and Bass Gurus (1 Viewer)

[Mike Up]

I've posted before on this but my room is a square 15' x 16' x 8' with a hallway opening forward right of speaker system and kitchen opening to the right side of the speaker system, both opening up with a larger door size opening (no doors btw) by the right speaker and subwoofer. The subwoofer is behind the right speaker. To the forward left of my speaker system is a foyer about 4' x 4' with my outside door. This subwoofer position is the best in my room. I've moved the subwoofer all over the living room and where it sits now offers the most accurate and deep bass out of any position. It really does sounds very good there. The good listening areas are at any seating position on my sofa which is about 1/2' from the back wall or to the sides of the sofa going into the corners but with a bass rise of 6 decibels from 75 to 81, but sound quality is still good.

My question is that at my listening area and my entire sofa area, I get a SPL of 75 decibels. To the sides of the sofa going into the rear corners of the room, I have 81 decibels of SPL. Also just a 5 feet forward of my listening position, I have a bass null in the lower frequencies even though the SPL is still at 71 decibels. Sounds much worse than 4 decibels. Will adding an identical subwoofer behind my left speaker help equalize the SPL (sound pressure levels) at my sofa and corners?? Also will the 2nd subwoofer help at all with the null about 5' in front of the listening position. Weird as the 5' in front of the listening position is the only area that has this significant null. Just to the sides of it are fine.

I will not be using any DSP or anything. I just was wondering if the 2nd subwoofer would help with equalizing the Sound Pressure Levels. I know that a 2nd subwoofer is usually for smoothing the bass but that honestly sounds good, just the differences in SPL is what bothers me as I would like to add some corner seats but not drown out the movie speech with bass.

BTW, I may be able to stick a 2nd sub in either rear corners but it will be a hardship with furniture and cosmetics.

The reason I ask is that prices came back down on my Klipsch R-120sw and if it will truly help, grabbing one now may be the thing to do. However I'm short on money and don't want to buy another sub if it won't correct these SPL issues.

Thanks for your help.

Please don't mind my poor drawing skills. I drew this up quickly on scrap paper.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

IF all those are just (essentially identical) blank walls and that's a hallway next to the sub (and closeable doorway on the other far side), I'd probably arrange/orient the HT setup completely differently and maybe set up the TV and front channels (and sub) along the (15ft) left wall instead since you don't seem to be making use of the extra (16ft) width of your current arrangement... plus I suspect the sub being right next to that hallway isn't ideal (vs being say in the opposite corner on the left wall).

With my suggestion, you'd probably give the audio more space (preferably at least a few feet) to "breathe" behind the sofa. Sitting so close to any wall isn't ideal for audio. And unless your TV is really huge (at least approaching projection level), you'd probably get much better immersion (and make fuller use of its resolving power) if the primary viewing position is much closer than what you seem to have (while giving the audio more space behind as ideal). And then, if/whenever you want, you could add a few chairs next to and/or behind the sofa to accommodate more people.

You probably can't expect to get perfectly equal results substantially outside the primary viewing/listening area (of the sofa) though unless you downgrade the sweet spot area perhaps. Maybe you could just set up a quickly switchable/accessible preset config just for those occasional instances to accommodate...

_Man_

 

[Mike Up]

I didnt put it on the pic I drew but that wall to the left is pretty much all picture window so I don't put anything on that wall that will block the window. The opposing side wall has 2 large book cases so its unuseable as well.

Moving sofa out from the wall makes poorer listening position bass besides looking weird siiting away from wall. It would be nice but it would be cramped and weird looking beside being at that bass null position.

How about another sub to correct issues?

Thanks for the ideas!

 

[JohnRice]

Adding a second sub to the left on the same wall as the current one is unlikely to improve room response, and could actually make it worse. I'd put a second sub in the rear left corner, which you can connect using a wireless adapter from SVS.

 

[Mike Up]

Adding a second sub to the left on the same wall as the current one is unlikely to improve room response, and could actually make it worse. I'd put a second sub in the rear left corner, which you can connect using a wireless adapter from SVS.

Thanks, I have another subwoofer cable already in that area. The problem with that corner is that it is the worst placement in the living room. No where in the living room sounded good with the subwoofer there. It sounded boomy, muddy, with an absence of low bass with an elevation of high bass. It just sounded bad.

I thought both subs were suppose to sound somewhat good at the listening position but equal out uneven frequency response and overall output volume levels for all positions. With it sounding so bad in that corner, it's hard to see it help. What's your thoughts on that?

 

[Mike Up]

I actually had my pic wrong. The wall that is marked 15' is actually 16' and the marked 16' wall is 15'. I got them mixed up.

 

[Mike Up]

I plan to put a chair in the rear left corner. Moving the sofa out from the wall cramps it up with little walk area between book cases and the sofa. Plus without a large living room, I'd be right on top of the speakers and TV.

While I always thought of my living room being medium to small, I've seen a lot of people in the forums that have smaller living rooms and home theater rooms than mine. Maybe that's the trend now in these new homes, small square footage rooms with 20' ceilings. Most I know with a standard home design (8' ceilings) have 20' x 30' basement theater rooms and 20' X 20' to 25' x 20' living rooms.

 

[JohnRice]

The problem with that corner is that it is the worst placement in the living room. No where in the living room sounded good with the subwoofer there. It sounded boomy, muddy, with an absence of low bass with an elevation of high bass. It just sounded bad.

A corner should have the fewest room interactions since two of the walls are too close to cause them. Square, or nearly square rooms are a problem.

 

[John Dirk]

At 400 Watts peak, that sub seems a bit underpowered for an open room of this size but you did say you're generally happy with what your ears are hearing. Don't let measurements drive you crazy if that's the case. My advice would be to hold off until you have the discretionary funds and then get a matching pair of subs. Depending on where you're located [since subs are rarely worth shipping] there are some great deal out there on the secondary market. Here is just one example.

Svs SB1000 dual

Pair of SVS SB1000. In excellent condition. Comes with after market power cables. And the original boxes all foam inserts.LOCAL PICKUP ONLY.I would drive and meet up within 4 hours of Jacksonville Florida.

www.usaudiomart.com

 

[Mike Up]

A corner should have the fewest room interactions since two of the walls are too close to cause them. Square, or nearly square rooms are a problem.

I thought the sub would sound better in the corner as well but it didn't. Even the other corner didn't sound as good as where it is behind the right speaker. It could be that the left rear corner has the large picture window right next to it and the right rear corner has shelves in the walls right above it along with the 2 large book cases right next to it. Maybe interactions/vibrations are interfering with the sound.

Right now my system does sound better than it ever has with the new Klipsch R-120SW. I guess I can live with the bass volume level changes in the corner and center of room. The sub still sounds great just with different volumes at those positions.

I will say when I had the Infinity RS1s and the Velodyne CT-100 that I didn't listen to music as much.. Now with the new Polk TSI100 and Klipsch R-120, I'm enjoying listening to music much more.

Thanks for the help! It kept me from making a mistake and purchasing another sub that would had been a hassle to return.

 

[Mike Up]

At 400 Watts peak, that sub seems a bit underpowered for an open room of this size but you did say you're generally happy with what your ears are hearing. Don't let measurements drive you crazy if that's the case. My advice would be to hold off until you have the discretionary funds and then get a matching pair of subs. Depending on where you're located [since subs are rarely worth shipping] there are some great deal out there on the secondary market. Here is just one example.

Svs SB1000 dual

Pair of SVS SB1000. In excellent condition. Comes with after market power cables. And the original boxes all foam inserts.LOCAL PICKUP ONLY.I would drive and meet up within 4 hours of Jacksonville Florida.

www.usaudiomart.com

Wow, my Velodyne 10" subwoofer filled the room also with room shaking bass as does this Klipsch and it had only 100 Watts RMS/250 Watts Peak compared to the Klipsch's 200 Watts RMS/400 Watts Peak and it had a smaller driver than the Klipsch as well.

I honestly can't image having full size speakers (not satellite speakers as I have in my media room) in a room smaller than this. I don't consider my room large at all, not small but medium. Before I bought my house, my previous apartments had larger living rooms than this but I'll admit, I didn't push the subwoofer volume like I do now, to keep the peace.

I could get a matching pair of subs now, but as being discussed, an extra sub likely wouldn't help and could be detrimental to the sound quality. My hope was to place it on the front wall behind the speaker as I did with the first sub. What's your thoughts?

 

[John Dirk]

I could get a matching pair of subs now, but as being discussed, an extra sub likely wouldn't help and could be detrimental to the sound quality. My hope was to place it on the front wall behind the speaker as I did with the first sub. What's your thoughts?

While a second sub is no silver bullet and probably won't help with the nulls [as those are more likely due to phase cancellations] I still believe you could benefit from adding one as it will almost certainly help with the overall SPL levels.

At 1920 Cu Ft, your room is slightly larger than mine [1832] and I have dual SVS SB4000's, which are rated at 1200 Watts RMS and 4000 peak. The biggest problem with subs in most home scenarios is placement flexibility. I also live with a couple of nulls in my setup because I simply have very limited options on where subs can realistically be placed. If you really want to address nulls, room treatment [bass traps, etc.] would probably be your best bet. In actual listening sessions, I've found I'm quite satisfied with my bass performance despite the measured nulls, so I haven't bothered with any treatments in my room as of yet.

 

[JohnRice]

Another really obvious thing I forgot to mention is correctly getting the phase of the sub set. That can have an enormous effect, especially if it's set terribly wrong. The simplest thing to do is make certain any phase setting on the sub itself is set to "0" and then measure the distance from the main viewing position to the sub and enter that in the speaker setup in the receiver. The same with all the other speakers. Auto calibration is supposed to do this, but doesn't always get it right. The better way to go is by using Room EQ Wizard (REW), a calibrated mic and run sweeps to check the crossover area.

Integrating a sub can get rather complicated. You can't just move it around the room and try to listen to the results. Your ears will fool you and the phase still has to be adjusted.

 

[Mike Up]

Yeh, it's integrated excellent now. Sounds like the bass comes directly from the main speakers. It doesn't draw attention to itself. I experimented with phase changes and distances and the correct 0 degrees and 14' away from me was the best.

 

[Mike Up]

Another really obvious thing I forgot to mention is correctly getting the phase of the sub set. That can have an enormous effect, especially if it's set terribly wrong. The simplest thing to do is make certain any phase setting on the sub itself is set to "0" and then measure the distance from the main viewing position to the sub and enter that in the speaker setup in the receiver. The same with all the other speakers. Auto calibration is supposed to do this, but doesn't always get it right. The better way to go is by using Room EQ Wizard (REW), a calibrated mic and run sweeps to check the crossover area.

Integrating a sub can get rather complicated. You can't just move it around the room and try to listen to the results. Your ears will fool you and the phase still has to be adjusted.

I did try different phases and distance settings to match to the main speakers the best in all locations but the left rear corner wasn't about integrating with the main speakers but the bass quality. Like I said, low bass was diminished while upper bass emphasized, plus very muddy as resonances with the wall corner and window must have interfered.

Right rear corner wasn't as bad but low bass still seemed weaker than behind the right front speaker, and still muddier sounding compared to position behind right front speaker. One position about 2 to 3 feet from the right rear corner on the right side wall sounded good. I had subwoofer there about 12 years ago but had to move it for the wifes book case. For years I stopped listening to music and watching movies with any audio quality care (just interest in the movies I watched) as I had put my previous Velodyne sub in the left rear corner. It didn't sound as good there as the position 2 to 3 feet from right rear corner on side wall, but was the only spot I could put it to make wife happy.

After finding how good the sub sounded behind the right front speaker after pulling speakers out more to fit subwoofer behind, I fought with the wife to leave it there and won. It just sounds more detailed and articulate in all the bass frequencies while having good low bass extension without emphasizing the upper bass. It just sounds good there. Of course I get my bass volume level differences as discussed but the sound of the subwoofer doesn't change from one position to another, just either gets quieter or louder as discussed above.

 

[Mike Up]

Thanks guys for your help! I instead decided to get a sub but for the media room.

While many may not agree, I have found the Klipsch R-120SW to sound really good in all ways. Significantly better than the Klipsch R-12SWi I had and definitely better than my 24 year old Velodyne CT-100 which is history now. Prices on this series came back down to sane prices so I bought a Klipsch R-100SW for my Media Room system. The Polk TL1600 subwoofer sounds really good with music but doesn't have any low bass for movies. I wanted something better for my Media Room which gets used for 3D movies and times when my daughter and friends are using the living room.

 

[Mike Up]

As I said, I upgraded my Media Room Subwoofer from a 8" down firing Polk TL1600 sub to a 10" front firing Klipsch R-100SW sub. Definitely has much more low end bass. The Polk TL1600 sub had good strong bass down to 40 Hz. I think it rolled off right under 40 Hz as it noticeably sounded cutoff on movie soundtracks and some low bass music.

The biggest improvement is that it is a flatter bass as the Polk sub was peaky in the high bass. Even with material that had no low bass, the improvement was large. Since my satellite speakers have no bass with a 135 Hz -3db rating, the mid-bass and upper bass characteristic comes from the sub.

Speakers sound so much better and airy. Along with much better low bass, speakers don't sound as thick in upper bass giving more detail to the sound. With normal bookshelf speakers this wouldn't be as apparent but with these Polk TL1 speakers with their 2-1/2" woofer and 135 Hz -3db response, it makes a large difference.

If I could had fit bookshelf speakers in the Media Room, I would had. However for their size, the Polk TL1 speakers sound excellent even better than many larger bookshelf speakers. Definitely better than the Infinity RS1 speakers I had previously in the living room.

On a side note, the R-100SW doesn't have the low bass that the R-120SW has obvioiusly, but sounds good. The Klipsch R-100SW was only marginally bigger than the Polk TL1600 subwoofer so it fit great. I'd say that the R-120SW does go a good 3Hz-5Hz lower which is right where they're rated.

 

[Mike Up]

OK, I added another Klipsch R-120SW to my living room. Mainly as a replacement to the original as the original had glue speckled all over the driver from the dust cap. Initially after having a Polk DSW 660wi that came defective that was a pain to send back, I figured I'd keep the original 120sw but after seeing how good the R-100sw looked, and a gap in the dust cap edge I noticed on the 120sw, I decided it must go back. Actually sending this one back is much easier than the Polk so I decided it was a must. Right now was fine, but I feared the dust cap could work off.

Anyhow, terrible terrible results with 2 subs!! Actually not what I had thought, they actually sounded better than I thought when out of phase from one another. Plus they got about 3 db more output. That was with additional sub in rear left corner.

First I put the subs at the same volume level on their own knobs and then level matched on receiver with Radio Shack level meter. BAD, just overly boomy and drew attention to sub in left rear corner. That was with their phases opposite. Both in phase was just high bass and no lows.

Then I level matched both subs to my listening position using their own sub volume knobs, then leveled matched to speakers with receiver. With both subs out of phase to each other, listening position sounded good but had less low end bass and less low end punch than single sub. Definitely not as good as one. Also null is in the same spot and even noticed more. Also bass volume from spot to spot was actually worse.

So in the optimum situation, I had less low frequency output, less low end punch, worse bass levels from position to position, no improvement on nulls and standing waves except maybe more nulls.

Okay, so I thought I'll try putting both subs in phase to each other. The listening position didn't sound much different than in phase, but the standing waves and nulls flipped flopped. Now I have a null at the right rear corner and the null area I had previously is boomy bass.

Wow, are rectangular rooms as bad as nearly square rooms?? I can't believe how bad the bass went.

I didn't put in near the right rear corner, about 3' out on back wall because I just can't. With the bookcases and some furniture, it can't go directly in the corner and I've heard enough with the other corner.

Just amazing how many sub makers push dual subs when results could be bad.

Now to send back the glue speckled sub.

 

[John Dirk]

Just amazing how many sub makers push dual subs when results could be bad.

Sorry but this statement represents a tremendous oversimplification. Ask anyone in the know and they'll tell you, proper subwoofer integration is a time-consuming and often arduous task. Since you refuse to use any DSP, you may indeed be better off with a single sub but that doesn't mean [properly integrated] dual subs wouldn't yield better overall results.

 

[Mike Up]

How would I add DSP without replacing my receiver or buying a different subwoofer with DSP, or buying an expensive DSP system. DSP isn't something that can be added easily. Also DSP doesn't fix everything. DSP could also make a single sub room response better, if needed.

Many suggest that just adding another sub at certain positions will correct issues and that just isn't true in all situations. You have to jump through hoops to make it work, if it even works at all bettering the room response at different positions.

I'll give you that it did add some extra output at the expense of low end bass.

I do appreciate your help in trying but it simply didn't work out.