*** Official 2002 Major League Baseball Season Thread (1 Viewer)

[Seth Paxton]

If it don't work, don't sweat it in NY because George will go out and get somebody else

WHO? WHO DID THEY GET?

Luis Sojo. If that's your complaint, that teams shouldn't be able to pick up Sojo, then you are clueless.

 

[Seth Paxton]

MikeM - On the Hitch thing. He was only carrying 125K and went to about 250K the next year with Seattle. It wasn't till they dumped him to San Diego, who then raised his salary over a million.

 

[Seth Paxton]

After the World Series, Cone found himself one of baseball's most lusted-for free agents. With numerous teams vying for his services, Cone followed his heart and returned home, signing a three year $18 million contract with the Royals.

Top FA signed with who? Yanks, Dodgers, Red Sox? This is not that long ago and the Royals won the sweepstakes.

Well he jumped from $5m 2 years in a row (more than the Mets had paid the year before) to $8m in 1995 with the Jays (last year of contract that Royals no longer wanted to carry since they weren't in the hunt anyway).

The Jays traded him after 17 starts into 95 because they were not winning enough to justify the spending.

Then in 96 the Yanks paid him $4.6m in the first year of his contract. I honestly don't remember if he resigned at some point or if the Yanks gave him a 5 year contract. His salary per year for the 5 Yankee years averages $7m per year, but for the first 3 years Cone got the exact same $18m/3 years as the Royals signed him for 3 years earlier.

So he might have signed for 3 and then resigned from much more in 99 when salaries had gone higher (in which case he would have gotten $10.75m a year for 2 years for the last 2).

Even still the $7m the Yanks gave him for years 96-2000 is not much different than the $6m a year the Royals signed him for in 93 when you consider inflation.

In 93-94 the Royals were a club willing to spend big money, despite what you remember.

ALL TEAMS DUMP SALARY IF THEY AREN'T WINNING. Even the Yanks. Right now they are winning, why would they dump contracts when they are winning.

 

[Seth Paxton]

In fairness, I have said several times that the NEW YANKS of the last 2-3 seasons are a team that is slowly being bought rather than grown. In fact they keep pissing their young talent away.

Let's look at the deals AFTER 98 - Clemens for Wells was an almost worthless trade, Wells gave you just as much for half the price and was a key part of the 98 Yanks, the best of the bunch.

Knoblauch for Milton/Guzman and $3m bucks - huge error.

Mussina - hired gun nearing the end of his career who is looking for a ring. In his first season the Yanks lost the World Series. And, let's not forget, this team was on the ropes against the A's till JETER (core guy) saved the day and turned the momentum.

Giambi - a legitimate star coming off a great season stolen away from Oakland as a FA. Just like ARod or Ramirez or Hampton or Randy Johnson or Kevin Brown..., who were also bought not traded for. 2 of those other teams are not winning despite going after the top guy.

The Giambi Yanks are winning, but not so much more than Seattle, Oakland, Boston, Atlanta, LA, SF, ARZ, even the Angels and Twins aren't far off. They just lost to Pedro tonight, so we will see.

The biggest point by any Yankee fan is this - it was the farm guys and mid-level FAs and smart trades that put the Yanks in the 96 and 98 WS without the hired help. The hired help has all jumped on the winning bandwagon.

It can happen in other sports, btw. Say Reggie Miller wants a ring really bad, maybe he signs with the Lakers for one season at $1m/1 year just to get the ring and to play back in his hometown, even though the Pacers offer him $5m/year.

How is that different than Clemens wanting to come to the Yanks and cherry pick a ring by joining a club that didn't need him the year before.

That's why I hate the "buy a team" approach being taken. I love Giambi as a player and did while he was with the A's. I like the A's quite a bit and always have. Same with the new M's (sans Randy, ARod, Griffey) as a matter of fact. I don't want the Yanks to sign Ichiro away from the M's cause it just isn't right.

The core Yanks and the new, young talent coming up behind them is great. Just think I could be cheering for Mike Lowell, Guzman coverted to LF or DH, Milton as a SP (just as good as Weaver), Lilly still with the team with Nick Johnson at 1B and Spencer getting all the time in RF.

Moose is fine, but really the Yanks could have just run Pettite, Wells, El Duque, Milton, Lilly, Mendoza out there and done just as well (look at Mussina's ERA for example), plus saved a ton of money.

That core group is who I root for, not Clemens, Moose or even Giambi (well, I don't root for him more now than I already did when he was an A).

 

[Seth Paxton]

So even though they are all rich (some significantly more than others) it is just bad business and actually just bad common sense to spend more than you make.

Which is why the Expos ownership, realizing the futility of competing with big money teams, sold their team to the MLB group.
Of course they proceded to buy another team in the same division, the Marlins, who themselves had an owner crying poor and couldn't compete with Braves money either yet was willing to buy the Red Sox and spend even more.
That's 2 RICH owners complaining about owning a team being a big money losing situation, yet both willing to buy another team. And both teams are in divisions competing with the 2 richest teams - Yanks and Braves.
Surely these guys got rich thanks to business smarts.
So it makes you wonder why guys that are so succesful at business, enough to become rich enough to buy a team, are willing to buy another team after telling us how they were losing all this money on the last team they owned.
Come on, no one is THAT good a liar. The contradiction is glaringly obvious. Say what they want, the actions tell me all I need to know. They buy other teams and current owners keep their teams.
If only these guys were running the stock market, the thing would be full on bullish right now. "Man, I'm losing my ass on the market every day. I think I will either hold what I've got or buy more."

 

[MikeM]

That suggests that there isn't a true leader in the AL west. I think Seattle is proving that they are the REAL leaders in the AL West (they beat Oakland 3 out of 4 last time). That wouldn't change if Giambi were still with Oakland.

Tomoko, I know it's like LAW in Japan to root for Seattle but as I write this, Seattle's lead in the AL West is down to 3 games, with both Anaheim and Oakland hot on their tails. A clear leader has hardly been established yet. We'll just have to wait and see. (I know the love for Ichiro being that I lived in Toyama prefecture from 95-97.) The Yakult Swallow's Furuta is still my all time fav over Ichiro.
I'm just saying that if Giambi was still with Oaktown, I doubt Seattle would even be leading the West. (And if A-rod was back in Seattle, then I agree, it would even the score.) The differnce is that Seattle's payroll is $80 Mil, and Oakland's is $39 mil. They didn't have the $$$ to re-sign Giambi (or Damon for that matter)So it's not exactly an even economic playing field to start with. That's the issue.

 

[Tomoko Noguchi]

Mike,

Yep. The Angels really did it to them yesterday. Of course, that happened with the A's too a couple of weeks ago. The A's won big, then the M's won the next three. This next week will be interesting.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Mike, I 100% agree with you on the fact that Oakland is highly efficient with the payroll. The perfect example of a well-run team.
Funny, cause I thought it was a big mistake to let go of a guy who had a chance to break Maris' record (which he eventually did in a Cards jersey). But they showed me who knows what.
However, as I pointed out, it's important to remember that Dye and Damon were taking from KC for the same reasons that Giambi went to the Yanks...money. And Mike, you have to wonder something else - is it that Oakland doesn't HAVE the money or doesn't see it as a good VALUE? Nothing wrong with getting what you pay for. Maybe the bottom line for Oakland is that they can win for a lot less money.
And that is always my point when these debates crop up. Money almost never buys wins on the open market. Rather it helps you keep the talent on your team which builds chemsitry and consistency. Too many teams lost big time after spending A LOT of money (Cubs right now, Texas). It happens every single year. And every year teams with low payrolls win. In fact the Twins are doing it for the 2nd year in a row. So I just don't buy into this whole We don't have a chance crap. If it were true then would Oakland have been up 2-0 against the Yanks last year. Just because the Yanks had a miracle comeback people act like it was never in doubt. That's just not realistic. The A's obviously had a damn good shot. Hell, they won more games than the Yanks last year too. So how does that fit with "they don't have a chance?"
The Yanks could win nearly as much for much cheaper were the team run more financially sound.
The Pirates...well maybe the Derek Bell signing for big money should tell you something. Not all teams spend wisely. Who here thought that was a smart deal, and we aren't even baseball GMs with inside info.
Jason was right about the Sox/Yanks so far. 2 amazing games, but Rivera out again with pain. A real bad sign. Their pitching is all but falling apart on the mound at this point.
So the Cards go and get Finley, who actually was having a good month last month. Could be enough to get them past a tough spot. However, not only are the Reds hanging around, but the Astros seem to be getting it together and the Pirates aren't really too far out yet. Sure are giving the Cards a pasting tonight.
Dodgers finally got the win they needed.
So how about some MVP/Cy Young guesses, just for fun. And leave pitchers out of MVP talk, a big pet peeve of mine.
AL - Torii Hunter has the Twins way out in front in the Central. Soriano is a 2B wrecking crew, but does his effort stand out enough on the big name Yanks?
AL Cy - Pedro and Lowe are close, one of those A's guys with Zito leading the bunch now. Hard to go against Pedro.
NL - Bonds seems the fav, but getting pitched around hurts not to mention expectations. The Expos surprise season helps Vlads chances, not to mention his stellar numbers. I say Vlad. Green could make a move but he seems to have cooled just a bit. If he keeps warm at least he could have a shot. If Berkman gets hot and pushed the Astros back into it he might have an outside chance.
NL Cy - Schilling seems obvious. Randy is always considered. I think 2 relievers could be mentioned too, Gagne and Smoltz. Gagne especially has been a big part of the Dodgers winning, which is a slight surprise. Smoltz performance has been really outstanding too though.
Ishii, Glavine and Morris will get kicked around too, but they can really make or break their chances over the next 60 games.

 

[Joseph S]

So I just don't buy into this whole We don't have a chance crap.

The fact that teams in the top half payrolls have a 219-5 record in the last 7 playoffs apparently counts for nothing then. Just because Texas has always been run by fools that don't know the importance of pitching doesn't mean that salary has nothing to do with winning. As it stands today 6 of the top 8 salaries would be in.

Stl now has the highest salary in their division after the Finley trade, thus leaving Min as the lone exception. They will win a division that will likely have Cleveland highest with a $67 mil year payroll once dumps are factored in. That's $80 million less than the Yankees current payroll.

With a 2.28% chance of winning just one playoff game I don't think that is much of a shot. If Steinbrenner gets his way and eliminates the best of 5 round, there's even less of a shot.

Money pays for:

1)Extensive Minor League System

2)Scouts

3)Bonuses to sign undraftable foreign free agents

4)Free Agents

5)Retaining Draft picks and current talent

6)Acquiring top Draft picks that are often let go by the poor teams to the bottom 1/2 of the 1st round because they couldn't ever sign them

7)Managers, GM, Staff, Trainers, and more

8)Picking up top "to-be" free agents from lesser or injury plaqued teams at the deadline.

9)Correcting foolish management player acquisitions

 

[Seth Paxton]

And if it's not going to be spent on players, then it isn't about competitive balance at all. It's just a case of some of the wealthiest men in America deciding that welfare isn't such a bad idea after all.

That's from Jayson Stark at ESPN.com
He has a very interesting article on the whole issue up right here
Please note the points about the Reds and the recent Dempster deal. Something I didn't know about till this article. It's rather disgusting. The Reds have been handed a LOT of revenue sharing, but wouldn't go an extra 400K on the Dempster deal. 400K in an attempt to get competitive. Again, read the article for the details.
I've yet to hear a single person explain the situation I complained about regarding owners "bailing out" only to buy another team, including buying a team another owner bailed out on. If you can explain how that matches the front of "we are losing money" from guys who's whole life is about making money, then I need to hear it. Otherwise I think taking their side is supporting a bunch of rich liars.
That's why I get so bent out of shape about people thinking Big George is the worst thing in baseball. He's not. He's not even 3rd. There are a lot of owners getting paid a lot of money who turn around and lie to you about losing money...and then you actually join their pity party.
To me that's truly disgusting.

 

[Jason Seaver]

Noooooooooooooo-maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!!!
Also, I believe Willie Banks has set a record for most incredible perversion of the Save statistic.

 

[Phil L]

Nomar is an incredible player. It's too bad that anytime he goes into a slump for a couple weeks people start to talk about his wrist. Everyone has slumps.
Willie Banks: The pressure of coming into a 16-4 game must be unbearable To be fair, 4 innings, 1 hit, no runs, save the bullpen for the second game= he did his job excellently and deserves some recognition for that. Besides the save is a weird stat anyway.

 

[Jason Seaver]

Oh, no question what Banks did was valuable. I'm just wondering if an 18-run spread is the largest ever in a game where a save was "earned".

Now, lets just hope that the rain blows through here quickly and the 2nd game is played...

 

[Joseph S]

Another death tonight in the Red Sox family. Long time broadcaster Ned Martin died at Raleigh-Durham airport today after his return flight from the Ted Williams memorial. :frowning:

By Associated Press, 7/23/2002 22:06
BOSTON (AP) Ned Martin, the radio and television voice of the Boston Red Sox for 31 years, died Tuesday, a day after attending the Ted Williams tribute at Fenway Park. He was 79.
Martin collapsed at Raleigh-Durham International Airport after a return trip from Boston, team officials said. The cause of death was not immediately known.
Martin's trademark call ''Mercy'' was a familiar sound to generations of Red Sox fans.
Martin began his career in 1956 covering minor league baseball in West Virginia. He joined Curt Gowdy in the Red Sox booth in 1961 and stayed for the rest of his career. He retired in 1992.
He announced the AL playoffs on CBS radio four times and worked the 1975 World Series on television for NBC.
The Red Sox inducted Martin into their Hall of Fame in 2000.
The Duke graduate also was a talented football announcer and did play-by-play for the Boston Patriots in 1965, Harvard, Dartmouth and Yale.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Now, lets just hope that the rain blows through here quickly and the 2nd game is played...

You asked for it.
Atta boy Ugi.
You know what sucks. Having Damon sitting on your bench today. Well, at least it was only in one of my leagues.
I also overcoached and put Zito on the bench because he just had a good game against the Angels and over the last 3 years they normally pound him. So much for that.
BTW, why did he get the save for that? Because he went 4 innings??

 

[Jason Seaver]

Yep. A pitcher gets a save for preserving a three run lead, preserving the lead if the winning run is on deck when he comes in, or preserving the lead over three or more innings. It's really a pretty useless statistic, but for some reason it has become the one by which relief pitchers are measured.

 

[John Thomas]

Link Removed.
Maybe Rolen is the link needed to get their offense to be a bit more consistent. It's truly bizarre to watch one game where the Cardinals jump all over a good pitcher then seem to not care while facing a mediocre pitcher and score no runs.
I really think when Woody Williams gets back off the DL, the Cardinals will pull away from the rest of the pack. The reason that it's so close right now is because of all these problems that St.Louis is having with its pitching staff.

 

[Chris Britton]

Looks like the Red Sox are looking to finally knock the Yankees of the American League East throne. I guess you could say they got Floyd for a Song.

 

[Phil L]

What I think is interesting is how many premier players have been traded this year vs. '94, when no one was traded. Makes me think the strike talk maybe more hype than substance.

 

[Dave_P]

It's too bad we had to give up Seung Song to get Cliff Floyd. Song is one of Boston's best young pitching prospects. He throws hard and at the corners with great control. We have to live in the present on this one I guess. Let's hope Floyd brings some explosiveness to our lineup.