Let's Talk About Networking (2 Viewers)

[Jason Goodmanson]

I'm currently in an apartment, and everything that could be hardwired is. Yeah, I may have a blue Ethernet cable clipped to the wall at the ceiling running from the living room through the kitchen to the den, but everything is wired (unless it can't be - phones, Alexa plugs, etc.)

When I do move later this year and get a house, the first priority is to upgrade my existing/limited network gear with either Unify from Unifi from Ubiquiti or TP-Link's Omada system. I was leaning towards Unifi at first but Omada is more appealing as the days go by. I'll wire the house with Cat-6 (at least two ports per room) and have wireless APs where necessary.

Unifi is appealing because of everything they have, but it's pricey.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

I can say that wired backhaul has significant benefits, especially if you have a large family, large house, or lots of devices streaming. You do have to run an ethernet cable to each WiFi point, but once that's done, it's done. Both my WiFi units are in the basement, up high. In fact, one is between the floor joists in a storage room that has an unfinished ceiling. It's a lot more straight forward than a mesh, but you do have to be a bit of a tweek to set it up. Once you understand how it works, it's not very mysterious. It's also rather inexpensive.

An ethernet backhaul certainly makes sense if you are able to run the wiring without too much hassle. In our older house, though, it wouldn't be simple, and I think having everything wireless will be fine in my particular case. The single Xfinity wi-fi router covered things well except for my wife's 2nd floor office. I have the main unit in my office on the first floor (the ISP cable runs there), which is centrally located on the first floor. I put the second Deco unit in our family room on the first floor in the back of the house where the home theater is located. That should cover our outside deck well, too. I placed the 3rd unit on the 2nd floor in a spare room that is situated in the middle of that floor. I got enough bleed through to the basement from the single Xfinity box that was in my office, so the Deco should cover it, too -- although we rarely need coverage down there.

I've only had an issue getting one device to attach to the network so far, out of 27 devices (still need to connect my Kindle, Windows 10 laptop and Chromebook). My Brother wireless laser printer would not connect, but I think I gave it a fixed IP address on the old network, and the Deco uses a different private address space than the Xfinity router used. I had to look up how to perform a factory reset on the printer, and then re-install it on my PC. Seems to work now, but I think I gave the printer a fixed IP address because my PC would lose its connection to the printer at times, but that was with my old Windows 10 desktop. I will have to see if that issue arises on my current Windows 11 desktop.

The devices I was most concerned with were the Kasa smart switches we use to control lighting in numerous rooms in the house, plus our outdoor lights. However, those devices all came online without any issues.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

My eero Pro mesh network (two base station units) still provides excellent coverage to our 2,800-ish square ft. split level home. The only device with a non-wifi Ethernet connection (besides the cable modem) is my Mac Mini which is pulling 1Gbps directly from the modem. Perhaps one day, it will be worth my while to have someone come in and pull Cat 5e (or 6 or whatever is the standard at that point) but for now, mesh wifi is fantastic.

The eero 6+ was the other setup I strongly considered, but the TP-Link Deco was a much better price during Prime Day. I was expecting a better discount on the eero systems, since Amazon owns them, but that wasn't the case. The Deco got very good reviews, so I went with the more cost effective option.

 

[Clinton McClure]

I can say that wired backhaul has significant benefits, especially if you have a large family, large house, or lots of devices streaming. You do have to run an ethernet cable to each WiFi point, but once that's done, it's done. Both my WiFi units are in the basement, up high. In fact, one is between the floor joists in a storage room that has an unfinished ceiling. It's a lot more straight forward than a mesh, but you do have to be a bit of a tweek to set it up. Once you understand how it works, it's not very mysterious. It's also rather inexpensive.

I don’t doubt that, however, at any given time, there are about 25 wireless devices hitting my wifi simultaneously with no issue so I’m hesitant to spend the cash to hardwire the back haul.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

I don’t doubt that, however, at any given time, there are about 25 wireless devices hitting my wifi simultaneously with no issue so I’m hesitant to spend the cash to hardwire the back haul.

If your environment is anything like mine, almost all of those 25 devices are probably using little or no bandwidth at any given time. I have about 30 devices that could potentially be on the network, but most of them are items such as light switches, thermostat, or AV equipment (receiver, disc player, etc) that are not sending data most of the time, and use very little bandwidth when they do communicate. We have a 400Mbps Internet connection, and that is plenty for just two of us. Even a 4K video stream only uses about 50-60Mbps at its peak.

 

[Clinton McClure]

If your environment is anything like mine, almost all of those 25 devices are probably using little or no bandwidth at any given time. I have about 30 devices that could potentially be on the network, but most of them are items such as light switches, thermostat, or AV equipment (receiver, disc player, etc) that are not sending data most of the time, and use very little bandwidth when they do communicate. We have a 400Mbps Internet connection, and that is plenty for just two of us. Even a 4K video stream only uses about 50-60Mbps at its peak.

Exactly. There are usually 2-3 AppleTV 4K boxes streaming at the same time but most all of our devices are using very little bandwidth. I’d be more worried if I was running a Plex server or playing online MMORPGs or first person shooters.

 

[JohnRice]

It's just an issue that if a device is streaming from the furthest mesh point, it is being passed through the WiFi of every point between it and the base. So, in effect, if you have four mesh points in a line, a single single wireless device can essentially act like four on the WiFi network. With wired backhaul, each WiFi point is independent.

I don't mean to try to push people into wired backhaul, I just find that quite often they don't consider it, or more likely, don't even realize it's an option. I didn't realize a WiFi network could be set up that way until someone here told me. It was either Dave Upton or John Dirk.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

^Yeah, I don't do/need additional AP, but if I do, I'd definitely try to do wired backhaul.

_Man_

 

[Scott Merryfield]

It's just an issue that if a device is streaming from the furthest mesh point, it is being passed through the WiFi of every point between it and the base. So, in effect, if you have four mesh points in a line, a single single wireless device can essentially act like four on the WiFi network. With wired backhaul, each WiFi point is independent.

I don't mean to try to push people into wired backhaul, I just find that quite often they don't consider it, or more likely, don't even realize it's an option. I didn't realize a WiFi network could be set up that way until someone here told me. It was either Dave Upton or John Dirk.

It really does depend on the environment. In my case, the two remote mesh points connect directly to the base unit which is centrally located in our two story (three, if you count the basement) colonial house, so there is no daisy chaining going on. Running ethernet cable to our upstairs is not something I really want to tackle. I actually used a Netgear ethernet power adapter for my wife's PC upstairs to resolve her connectivity issue until I installed the mesh system. The devices work in pairs, and use the electrical wiring in the house to create a point to point ethernet connection. It wasn't ideal, but it worked, and saved me from having to route cabling from upstairs down to our basement, and then back up to my first floor office where the main router is located.

In a perfect world, I would have a proper structured wiring system, with each room having cabling running to a central distribution closet (I did this for a living for over 3 decades). But it's just not worth doing in our older home.

 

[GeorgeHolland]

I have an ASUS RT-AC88U that has reasonable WIFI coverage throughout my house and out on my patio where I spend a lot of time.

What it wasn’t reaching was down to the high bank lake front where I have a small area cleared out with 4 Adirondack chairs and a couple end tables. It is a hike down the steep bank and cell coverage is very weak and WIFI nonexistent. The lake is not very wide at our end and has high bank on both sides making both Cell and WiFi coverage a challenge.

Yesterday I tested a Netgear WiFi 6 AX1800 Dual Band Access point powered by a Netgear GS305P 5-port gigabit PoE+ switch. For the test I connected the switch on the patio table, ran cable down about 20 or 30 feet and set the AP on one of the steps we have going down to the lake.

The WiFi streghth was great as I watched the few critters on the lake entertain me, sipped on a glass of wine, smoked a cigar, and streamed Thursday Night Football on my laptop. Defeats the purpose of unplugging and relaxing in our little patch of nature but gives me options especially with the Mariners in the wild card chase.

Next test will be to put the AP in a top floor bedroom where I can leave it installed and see if the WiFi coverage reaches the lake. I should have looked at outdoor AP’s. I’m sure I could find an outdoor enclosure if I really need to install it outside.

 

[John Dirk]

Yesterday I tested a Netgear WiFi 6 AX1800 Dual Band Access point powered by a Netgear GS305P 5-port gigabit PoE+ switch.

Did you buy the Netgear specifically for this? Wifi 6 isn't going to help in this scenario so no need to pay extra for it.

Next test will be to put the AP in a top floor bedroom where I can leave it installed and see if the WiFi coverage reaches the lake.

Hard to be sure without seeing the areas in question but it sounds like too great a distance to cover with a window in between. I'd expect marginal results, likely OK for general surfing but not streaming. I'd go with an outdoor AP and enjoy consistent assured coverage.

 

[JohnRice]

Hard to be sure without seeing the areas in question but it sounds like too great a distance to cover with a window in between. I'd expect marginal results, likely OK for general surfing but not streaming. I'd go with an outdoor AP and enjoy consistent assured coverage.

And all those trees. What about some pvc conduit to run ethernet down there, and just take your AP there when you want to use it?

 

[Scott Merryfield]

And all those trees. What about some pvc conduit to run ethernet down there, and just take your AP there when you want to use it?

Just make sure to use waterproof ethernet cables / connectors. Otherwise, there is a significant risk of shorting out the equipment.

Funny story. I was the manager of the network group for a large healthcare system. We provided an ethernet connection to a company that would bring in portable medical imaging trailers to a couple of our hospitals on a weekly basis. We installed waterproof ethernet jacks and provided the company's technicians with waterproof cables, and their techs would make the connections for data (along with electrical power) when they brought in the trailer. Well, every so often they would forget to disconnect the ethernet cable before hauling the trailer away. After this happened a couple of times, we started billing the trailer company for any repairs and made them purchase a bunch of extra cables.

The techs never forgot to disconnect the electrical power, so I have no idea why they couldn't remember to disconnect the data cable.

 

[John Dirk]

Just make sure to use waterproof ethernet cables / connectors. Otherwise, there is a significant risk of shorting out the equipment.

Funny story. I was the manager of the network group for a large healthcare system. We provided an ethernet connection to a company that would bring in portable medical imaging trailers to a couple of our hospitals on a weekly basis. We installed waterproof ethernet jacks and provided the company's technicians with waterproof cables, and their techs would make the connections for data (along with electrical power) when they brought in the trailer. Well, every so often they would forget to disconnect the ethernet cable before hauling the trailer away. After this happened a couple of times, we started billing the trailer company for any repairs and made them purchase a bunch of extra cables.

The techs never forgot to disconnect the electrical power, so I have no idea why they couldn't remember to disconnect the data cable,

I have hundreds of similar stories. Us low voltage folks never get our due respect in construction environments.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Just make sure to use waterproof ethernet cables / connectors. Otherwise, there is a significant risk of shorting out the equipment.

Funny story. I was the manager of the network group for a large healthcare system. We provided an ethernet connection to a company that would bring in portable medical imaging trailers to a couple of our hospitals on a weekly basis. We installed waterproof ethernet jacks and provided the company's technicians with waterproof cables, and their techs would make the connections for data (along with electrical power) when they brought in the trailer. Well, every so often they would forget to disconnect the ethernet cable before hauling the trailer away. After this happened a couple of times, we started billing the trailer company for any repairs and made them purchase a bunch of extra cables.

The techs never forgot to disconnect the electrical power, so I have no idea why they couldn't remember to disconnect the data cable,

I have hundreds of similar stories. Us low voltage folks never get our due respect in construction environments.

Com'on, it's just digital, not analog nor (meaningfully) electrical... and over some ether(net)... nothing tangibly, visibly, physically real anyway, no?

_Man_

 

[GeorgeHolland]

Did you buy the Netgear specifically for this? Wifi 6 isn't going to help in this scenario so no need to pay extra for it.

Hard to be sure without seeing the areas in question but it sounds like too great a distance to cover with a window in between. I'd expect marginal results, likely OK for general surfing but not streaming. I'd go with an outdoor AP and enjoy consistent assured coverage.

With the AP sitting on an upstairs windowsill I am able to connect and stream a Premier Football (Soccer) game down on the lake with my MacBook Pro M2 Max for over 5 minutes without problem. My iPhone 14 Pro Max dropped the WiFi signal after a short period and I was not able to reconnect but I only tried once before hiking back up after a short morning test.

It is getting hard to purchase any decent WiFi component without WiFi 6. My MacBook Pro M2 supports it, any new iPhones support it and my next WiFi router will have it. I would have selected this AP anyway and it helped it was on sale. I keep things a long time and prefer to future proof. Surprised you don't see value in WiFi 6 and 6E. I look forward to the ability to connect at speed while working on the patio and accessing large image and video files on my NAS.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

With the AP sitting on an upstairs windowsill I am able to connect and stream a Premier Football (Soccer) game down on the lake with my MacBook Pro M2 Max for over 5 minutes without problem. My iPhone 14 Pro Max dropped the WiFi signal after a short period and I was not able to reconnect but I only tried once before hiking back up after a short morning test.

Sounds like it can work well enough at least some of the time, but probably not reliably all the time though.

Surprised you don't see value in WiFi 6 and 6E. I look forward to the ability to connect at speed while working on the patio and accessing large image and video files on my NAS.

John was probably just being practical and aiming to address your specific use case, not a general rec about that.

WiFi 6 and 6E almost certainly wouldn't matter at all as you won't be able to sustain that level of signal quality and connection, if you can connect w/ that at all (vs simply falling down to WiFi 5 or less), at such distances w/ all those trees in the way to boot... assuming you're not going to run cable down to the lakeside for the AP to be much closer w/ unobstructed signal path...

_Man_

 

[John Dirk]

Surprised you don't see value in WiFi 6 and 6E. I look forward to the ability to connect at speed while working on the patio and accessing large image and video files on my NAS.

I don't believe I ever said that but the chief advantages of WiFi 6 just don't apply to most consumer scenarios. It's mainly intended to improve performance in densely populated environments such as corporate office space and large venues.

That said, I'm with you on future-proofing, which is why I asked if you had purchased the AP specifically for that purpose. My next router [etc.] will also be consistent with current standards but I won't buy it until a compelling enough case presents itself. For the time being, Wifi 5 works perfectly fine for me.

 

[GeorgeHolland]

Sounds like it can work well enough at least some of the time, but probably not reliably all the time though.



John was probably just being practical and aiming to address your specific use case, not a general rec about that.

WiFi 6 and 6E almost certainly wouldn't matter at all as you won't be able to sustain that level of signal quality and connection, if you can connect w/ that at all (vs simply falling down to WiFi 5 or less), at such distances w/ all those trees in the way to boot... assuming you're not going to run cable down to the lakeside for the AP to be much closer w/ unobstructed signal path...

_Man_

My bet is casual streaming while down at the lake via the AP will work as well as previous streaming via my ASUS router that is some distance away while sitting out on the patio. It might work even better once I permanently install it either higher or positioned so the larger trees are not in the way as much. Being able to utilize a strong WiFi 6 or even 6E connection in the future is a different use case and would be limited to the patio where the AP is directly over and only a benefit to me if accessing or transferring large files, likely when editing. My daughter will appreciate more stability when house and dog sitting as she likes to work outside and frequently hosts Zoom audio and video calls. All that can be accomplished without WiFi 6 but I still can't imaging not getting a WiFi 6 or better AP. Must be my last two jobs working at Cisco Systems and then Extreme Networks even if I was just a Channel Sales Manager with a team of Engineers supporting me. Thanks

 

[GeorgeHolland]

I don't believe I ever said that but the chief advantages of WiFi 6 just don't apply to most consumer scenarios. It's mainly intended to improve performance in densely populated environments such as corporate office space and large venues.

That said, I'm with you on future-proofing, which is why I asked if you had purchased the AP specifically for that purpose. My next router [etc.] will also be consistent with current standards but I won't buy it until a compelling enough case presents itself. For the time being, Wifi 5 works perfectly fine for me.

The companies I worked for certainly pushed the limits in high density environments, none more challenging than NFL Stadiums and other sports venues on game day. Classroom online learning was another I frequently encountered.