DVD Review HTF REVIEW: The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (1 Viewer)

[Ricardo C]

And yet you feel qualified to compare the two. I know bashing Bakshi is the cool thing to do nowadays, but guess what? The guy did get a few things right, and some, even better than PJ did.

 

[Jack _Webster]

Details maybe, but not the spirit. I don't bash that version for the heck of it - it really did leave a very bad impression.

 

[Ricardo C]

Oh, I agree I haven't been able to sit through the whole thing since I was eight. But some scenes really do grab me. A minority of them, but they're there. Then Aruman the Strangely Red shows up and disenchants me.

 

[Richard Kim]

Or how about Boromir the Viking and Aragorn the Native American?

Seriously though, it is evident that Jackson was influenced by Bakshi's version and can be seen in some scenes, like when the Nazgul hack and slash the beds in Bree.

I did think that Bakshi did handle Merry and Pippin better in that they followed Frodo out of loyality to their friend and kin (as was described by Tolkein). Whereas in Jackson's FOTR there's no real reason why they tag along with Frodo and are relegated more as comic relief.

Sam, however is an entirely different story...

 

[Steve Kuester]

" quote:

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It was like that in the cinema. There have been a few scenes in the trilogy with sound like that. I don't know why. The most notable example was in FOTR, where Gandalf is greeted by Saruman. Listen to the change in sound quality between Saruman's voiceover and actual on-screen dialogue. It's a dramatic drop in quality.
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quote:

It't not a drop in quality, it's a change in tone, and it is deliberate. The tone changes to mark the transition from Saruman's thoughts to his actual speech. It's the same technique used in countless other movies. "




I actually liked the effect in this scene. I thought it was a subtle (who said PJ wasn't subtle??) attempt to show the magical powers in Saruman's voice as Gandalf would not have been able to hear a normal person talking as he was still a little ways off and riding on horseback.

 

[Marvin Richardson]

In reference to that article, some people wouldn't be satisfied with any The Lord of the Rings adaptation that was not exactly like the books, as much as they might try to deny it.
I also don't think Bakshi did anything right in his "version" of The Lord of the Rings. From the overly bombastic music, the ridiculous Samwise "Gomer Pyle" Gamgee, the lethargic, nonthreatening Nazgûl, (S)Aruman of the Technicolor Dreamcoat, the completely Disneyfied ents (of course they were only seen in one shot), the very frightening overweight frat boys in masks, I mean orcs...I could go on and on, but what's the point. I loathe that movie (even though its in my collection). The only thing worse than that is the Rankin/Bass "Return of the King" drivel that was made for TV.
Their garments most certainly were real, and that's what got burned. It was established in the novel that they were afraid of fire. He was driving them back, away from Frodo. Of course it is an action scene where perhaps you didn't need one, but it was also the first action scene (as in swordfight) in the whole movie. Seems like a good place to have it.
My main complaints were with Faramir in the theatrical Two Towers, Denethor in Return of the King and the compressed feeling that the third film had from Cirth Ungol to the Sammath Naur. They fixed Faramir in the long version, although his motives and character are changed from the book, but he seems less a scumbag and more of a neglected son in the extended version. Denethor just came off as "psycho" in the theatrical Return of the King. I know why he acted that way, but my wife didn't. Hopefully that will be fixed in the extended, as will the shortness of the final act.

 

[Ricardo C]

"Frodo of the Nine Fingers, and the Ring of DOOOOOM"

Yeah, the flashbacks to that one are not good

Folks, I love PJ's films. But sometimes they make me go into the fetal position because when he drops the ball, he does so spectacularly. Yes, his films are light-years ahead of Bakshi's, but the old master did beat PJ in a few scenes.

 

[Sean Bryan]

I always took this as the first part of these lines are reflecting the power of Saruman's voice. Not a gaff in sound editing at all, but a subtle nod to fans who know that there is power in Saruman's voice. As Steve said.

 

[Marvin Richardson]

Yes...they are orcs after all. Were you expecting some more introspective, thoughtful orcs to show up? They pretty much are sneering evil all the time creatures. That's the whole point.
Well, I stated my major problems with Jackson's versions in my above post, of course from reading your post you'd think I put him on some sort of pedastal. I certainly never saw anything in any of the films that made me "go into the fetal position because when he drops the ball, he does so spectacularly." The films soar, and attain an emotional resonance for me that only the very best films ever attain. That doesn't mean they are perfect or above criticism, simply that for me, the faults are so small that I barely even notice them any more. I don't even mind Sloth, er, I mean Gothmog anymore.

 

[Ricardo C]

Yeah, I mistook your statement to be a veiled jab at those of us who've complained about PJ's choices. My bad :b


Well, it may be just a matter of personal interpretation, but the Orcs in the books always struck me as being less beastly. Disgusting, yes, but also disturbingly close to human beings. And I always imagined their voices as being less affected than PJ's orcs. His orcs feel like such exaggerations that it becomes harder to suspend disbelief.

My "fetal position" moments deal mostly with Denethor. Gandalf knocking him out was just too much to bear. As was Gandalf's generally dismissive atittude towards him most of the time. Then there's Denethor staring petulantly at Gandalf with the torch in his hand, like saying "yeah, I'm burning myself and my son out of spite for you". Or the fact that Gandalf essentially kills Denethor by knocking him onto the pyre because Denetor roughed Pippin up. They have such a childish relationship in the film, that I just start praying for the scene to be over quickly whenever they share the screen. Hopefully the EE will do for them what the TTT EE did for Faramir.

And now I'll shut up, before I'm told to save it for the movie discussion thread

 

[Stephen_L]

Ricardo, though I share your dissatisfaction with the simplistic way Denethor is presented, the spiteful way he tossed the torch on the pyre in Gandalf's face was very consistent with the account in the book. Here are Denethor's quotes from "The Pyre of Denethor" chapter.

"But I say to thee Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool!"
"Thou (Gandalf) hadst already stolen half my son's love. Now thou stealest the hearts of my knights also. . but in this at least thou shalt not defy my will: to rule my own end"

Seems to me the look and torch toss expressed the "Screw you Gandalf" sentiment quite nicely.

 

[Ricardo C]

Thanks for the reminder, Stephen :b

 

[Kami]

Re: the weathertop sequence

Agreed it was pretty mediocre when compared to the rest of the trilogy, but it wasn't a bad scene by any means. If I recall correctly, Jackson even mentioned once that he wishes he could reshoot Weathertop. It was one of the first scenes they shot and I guess they didn't have time to redo such a scene during pickups. Weathertop itself was beautifully designed though, and that shot of a dark brooding sky with Strider standing a the edge of their camp is one of my favorite shots in the trilogy.

I disagree with your senitments on the orcs, Ricardo. I thought they were amazingly done, and they do have some cool dialogue parts - I think my favorite might be the little conversation between Ugluk and Grishnakh in the TTT:EE (when they give Merry the orc draught).

One thing I will say is that I wish Lurtz had some more dialogue - he was a real badass and would have been an even better badass if he spoke some more other than "FFIIIIND THEEE HAALLLLFFFLINNGSSS ARGHHHHHHH!!!"

 

[Jonathan Dagmar]

The diffrence of course being that shore used bombastic music when it was appropriate, as opposed to ALL THE TIME.

 

[Ricardo C]

Rosemann did compose some rather nice music for the Shire sequences. And while the "Mithrandir" chorus was ludicrous, the melody itself wasn't all bad.

 

[Travis_S]

The score during Gandalf's charge at the end of Bakshi's Lord of the Rings sounded familair to me. Then I looked up the composer on IMDB. Star Trek IV anyone?

 

[Chris Will]

Why do all the threads end up being arguments about this version vs. that version. Just enjoy the movies for what they are and the same with the books, great cinematic and literary triumphs. It's like we are turning into Star Wars fans here and we don't need that.

 

[Ricardo C]

EDIT: Oops.

 

[Tony_Ramos]

Thank you! I said in another forum that I thought PJ wasted all the incredible fight choreography work done. Just WASTED except on a little bit of Aragorn. But for the most of the audience, at least it was still exciting.



Ricardo_C:

I felt that the Ringwraiths were quite scary when I first saw the film... Maybe i'm just wimpy.

Second, I thought the orcs were not just evil and malicious, but cowardly at the same time, which is perfect for their form. They also don't always sneer, sometimes they look kind of spacy, which is how they should. But you ahve to understand that they are primarily motivated out of malice for beauty they can never appreciate again, having once been elves.

Also, you didn't really say anything new in response to my Chris Tolkien post. I said I respected the man, but I was under the impression that he was spurning the films, which would be against Tolkien's wishes.

I also loved your description of tolkien as being primarily motivated by money. Besides from being not true, it's almost as if you insinuate that it's wrong for an author, who has brought so much joy to the world, to expect such.

 

[Ricardo C]

If you're going to misrepresent my words and call me a liar based on your distortion of them, at least have the decency to prove your claims.

I only said that Tolkien was financially savvy (which Letters establishes very well), and that money was the key motivation for him to sell the film rights to his work, which he states himself, more than once!

And for the life of me, I can't figure out how you arrived at the conclusion that I implied it was wrong for Tolkien to want to be properly compensated for his work.