Higher end receiver worth it? (1 Viewer)

[WhatDoIKnow]

Howdy.
I've been looking around quite a while but I cant really find a thread that talks about this specifically. My bad if it has been discussed.
I'm looking for a new receiver. I'm trying to figure out what the differences are between two seemingly basically identical receivers that can justify the higher price range. For example, the Denon - AVR-S970H and Denon - AVR-X2800H are just about the same. They have the same features as far as I can tell. The only obvious difference I can see is that the X2800H has 5W more per channel. There are quite a few examples like this from brand to brand but these two are probably at the top of my list.
I guess my question is: what justifies a higher price between two receivers that have the same features? I don't know what to look for.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Nothings jumping at me either! Hopefully someone else can weigh in.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Old Dog]

I don't have either of these, so not an expert on either model (but I do have a Denon AVR and am very happy with it). Searching a little I found a comparison list indicating the 2800 has advantages over the 970, the 970 doesn't appear to have any advantages over the 2800 (assuming the list is of course correct!). The differences may, or may not be important to any potential purchaser:

	Denon AVR-X2800H	vs	Denon AVR-S970H
Bi-amp capability	Y (assignable)	vs	X
More Advanced Auto Speaker Calibration System	Y Audyssey MultEQ XT	vs	Y Audyssey MultEQ
isf Certified Calibration Control	Y	vs	X
Speaker A/B	Y assignable	vs	X
Zone 2 Outs	Y Pre Out	vs	X
RS-232C Interface	Y	vs	X
Remote (IR) Input/Output	1 / 1	vs	0 / 0
Control4 SDDP	Y	vs	X
Detachable Power Cord	Y	vs	X
High Grade Audio Components	Y	vs	X
Bigger Power Supply	500 W	vs	460 W
Higher Power Output (8 Ω, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 2 channel driven, FTC)	95 W (0.08% THD)	vs	90 W (0.08% THD)
Higher Power Output (6 Ω, 1 kHz, 1 channel driven, IEC)	150 W (1% THD)	vs	145 W (1% THD)

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

^Hmmm... Wonder what "High Grade Audio Components" actually mean? IF I were shopping, that's probably the one big consideration for me. Bi-amping capability would seem interesting/promising in theory, but in actual practice, probably isn't quite all it's cut out to be, especially at this level -- probably better off going for better, more powerful separates instead.

I don't bother w/ multi-zone setup, so some of the other diffs wouldn't matter to me. And Audyssey's calibration software doesn't seem good enough to bother paying extra (for that upgrade) me thinks... but that's also just me though...

_Man_

 

[Old Dog]

Wonder what "High Grade Audio Components" actually mean?

I wondered about that too - I felt it was a bit strange to be honest. Couldn't really see why the 2800 would have (some?) better quality components that the 970. It would be interesting to see inside!
I have had receivers with Audyssey Multi EQ XT and XT32. I do find XT32 to be the better of the two. Not perfect and may require more than one calibration, but pretty good results are possible even if you do need to tweak manually a little afterwards. I haven't used any other calibration software so unable to comment how Audyssey compares with others.
I didn't spot any pre-outs (other than zone 2 on the 2800), adding extra power amps for surround sound is not a possibility with either (would be a down side for me). I use external amps with my Denon and they make a big difference. Personally, I would be looking for a receiver with pre-outs with a view to potentially add additional power later, or go for separates from the start as you suggest MAN, if affordable.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

It's unfortunate that all the makers seem to have moved away from offering preouts on all their low-to-mid-tier AVRs.

I have *always* gone w/ dedicated power amps myself... even back towards the end my poor college student days when I first made the jump from a cheap-ish boombox to a real stereo system. I actually went w/ B&K for amps for ~30 years (first w/ the ST-140 for stereo, then a handful years later w/ an affordable, used AV5000 for HT that lasted a bit over 2 decades... and still functional, but definitely needs to be refreshed)... though I did go w/ a very affordable, excellent value, low-end Yamaha AVR to use only as prepro for nearly a decade starting around the HD format war... and it's still perfectly functional (as prepro anyway... since I've never even tested its amp section).

These days I'm just using Emotiva amps, which serve well to replace the likes of Adcom and B&K at the budget-ish end of (largely entry level) audiophile gear... I did briefly toy w/ the notion of going for a used pair of Parasound JC1 monoblocks to drive a used pair of Thiel CS5i's, haha... but just couldn't pull the trigger... plus had to change plans and not use those Thiels anymore anyway -- they just require much more space (and soundproofing for neighbors) than I can give them to do them justice going forward...

_Man_

 

[YANG]

Nothings jumping at me either! Hopefully someone else can weigh in.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

depending on individuals' view.
personally, let's say spending 9999euro on a McIntosh MHT300, is a flaunt of wealth from an individual who have huge disposable income to splurge on a "adult toy". however, when we dissect, or peel the layer of the "onion" further, i see, layers of costs, parts and components, advertising and marketing, and the fatter one, to probably employment salary to the engineers cum assemblers to make an "elite piece of gear".

to mid level income group individuals who may have no commitment to other fields of things in life, that price could probably get a better value system that consist of the Denon A1(made in Japan, birth place of Denon of course) plus full moderately low cost 7.1.4 speaker setup... without installation though.
then... to pragmatic mid level group who have other commitments to feed, family, juniors education, loans, housing, etc... 9999euro is one big deal to splurge just on one gear. some of them will dig further into details, what makes the McIntosh different and exquisite. what marks on the facet of the gear may not be important later, when the interested investigative individual finds out that what lies under the hood, crucial part that delivers the function is cost and constructed identically to cheaper competition... the interested investigative individual aka 3I will think McIntosh is nothing special anymore. 9999euro will have a better use on other things in life... or perhaps a setup of moderately fully funtional homecinema setup that consist of more components than just a receiver... from the exquisite marque.

 

[YANG]

Howdy.
I've been looking around quite a while but I cant really find a thread that talks about this specifically. My bad if it has been discussed.
I'm looking for a new receiver. I'm trying to figure out what the differences are between two seemingly basically identical receivers that can justify the higher price range. For example, the Denon - AVR-S970H and Denon - AVR-X2800H are just about the same. They have the same features as far as I can tell. The only obvious difference I can see is that the X2800H has 5W more per channel. There are quite a few examples like this from brand to brand but these two are probably at the top of my list.
I guess my question is: what justifies a higher price between two receivers that have the same features? I don't know what to look for.

on the front, and the general glance on the specifications, the only difference you see is the power output, i see however... at the back, a set of preouts for either external amplification upgrade or just in case, internal amplification components fails to function. so... does $400 difference justifies?
probably yes, if you're intend to stick with the higher priced x2800H for long, and you would think external amplification would sound better.
probably no, if you intend to keep up with technological features to date when new advance feature pops up in the following year with lower cost.

 

[WhatDoIKnow]

	Denon AVR-X2800H	vs	Denon AVR-S970H
Bi-amp capability	Y (assignable)	vs	X

I saw a chart like this here but even after seeing all the actual differences on it, I still can't figure out if its worth it.

Wonder what "High Grade Audio Components" actually mean? [...]

That is something that has me thinking for sure. I bet these "higher grade components" statement is halfway gimmicky, and halfway sorta legit. I don't think I care. I don't care for bi-amping ( I dont even know what that is). I might do multi zone , but nothing super complex. I'm with you regarding the calibration software.

...
I would be looking for a receiver with pre-outs with a view to potentially add additional power later, or go for separates from the start as you suggest MAN, if affordable.

I didn't know what pre-outs were until now. ( I looked it up before this reply)
I've never felt the need for more power. I'm coming from a Yamaha RX-V665 (13 years old) and I still don't see the need for an upgrade in power. I wonder how much difference it would actually make to me. So if an amp has a preout, what channel(s) does the external amplifier power? I can probably look this up. You don't need to humor my lack of intelligence.

probably yes, if you're intend to stick with the higher priced x2800H for long, and you would think external amplification would sound better.
probably no, if you intend to keep up with technological features to date when new advance feature pops up in the following year with lower cost.

hmmm... My current AVR is very old. I likely intend of having whatever I buy for quite a while, so from that perspective then maybe yes its worth it. But also I dont see myself adding external amps. So then no might be answer. Decisions decisions.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a receiver with pre-outs in the $700-$800 price range? All I want to do is a 5.1.2 ; maybe a 5.2.2. And with two HDMI outs...

I actually really like my current amp still. I honestly only have one problem, which is that the voices/conversations are always drown out by music/sound effects/etc. I have to constantly turn the volume up and down when watching anything, or use subtitles. I really would love to stop having to use subtitles. I'm being told that having Atmos versus what I have now would likely solve that issue.

 

[JohnRice]

Does anyone have any recommendations for a receiver with pre-outs in the $700-$800 price range? All I want to do is a 5.1.2 ; maybe a 5.2.2. And with two HDMI outs...

To the best of my knowledge, there aren't any even close to that price. Generally it's $1,500+. There can always be some on sale/closeout/refurb. As far as which channels have pre-outs, it also depends on how high end the receiver is. It typically starts with just L&R and goes from there to all channels. Some receivers in the higher end will (for example) process 11 channels, but only have 9 channels of amplification built-in. So, if you want to go to 11, you need to add an amplifier.

 

[WhatDoIKnow]

Word. Then I dont need pre-outs. I don't care enough to spend that much.

 

[Old Dog]

I didn't know what pre-outs were until now. ( I looked it up before this reply)
I've never felt the need for more power. I'm coming from a Yamaha RX-V665 (13 years old) and I still don't see the need for an upgrade in power. I wonder how much difference it would actually make to me. So if an amp has a preout, what channel(s) does the external amplifier power? I can probably look this up. You don't need to humor my lack of intelligence.

Just took a quick look at the 665 manual, you already have pre-outs on that receiver. Yamaha is pretty good kit and I am not sure you would be gaining much by changing it at this stage (others may have a different opinion). I helped a friend with a RX-V473 around a year or so ago, it actually sounded very good. Certainly no issue with drowned out voices.

To be honest, the Yamaha should sound pretty good. I don't know if you have already done so, but I would work on doing everything possible to get it sounding right before spending money on a replacement. If you can't get the Yamaha sounding good, I feel the next receiver will most likely result in the same.

Are you confident you have the receiver set up correctly - did you use the set up mic to assist?
Do you have a decent centre speaker?
What other speakers are you using?

Re pre-outs, basically a receiver is two separate types of amplifier in one box - a pre-amplifier and a power amplifier. MAN mentioned separates, here there would be two boxes, one being a pre-amplifier the other being the power amplifier. Separates tend to offer better sound, but it is not always a guarantee (depends a lot on price category).

A 5.1 channel amplifier with pre-outs, will basically have 6 connections, one for each of the 5 surround channels plus a sub (a 7.1 channel receiver would usually have 8 - you actually have 9 on the 667, 1 for each of the 7 surround channels plus 2 for subs).
Having pre-outs simply allows you to connect a surround channel to an external power amplifier, rather than use the built in power amplifier in the receiver. Built in power amplifiers can often get stressed trying to drive all channels in larger rooms, when the volume is turned up, or with inefficient speakers.

I have a 7 channel Denon receiver, but only use 5 channels (I don't even use a sub). I power the rear surrounds from the receiver's own speaker terminals. I have a separate mono amplifier, solely for the centre speaker, connected to the centre channel pre-out. Front left and right speakers are also powered by external amplifiers connected to front L and R pre-outs.
I definitely get an improvement in sound quality from adding these additional power amplifiers. It's not louder, the sound is more spacious / open and more dynamic. As a result it also makes it clearer, but the receiver, by itself, never sounded "drowned" out.

 

[smithbrad]

Does anyone have any recommendations for a receiver with pre-outs in the $700-$800 price range? All I want to do is a 5.1.2 ; maybe a 5.2.2. And with two HDMI outs...

I purchased a Marantz AV Receiver SR5013 - 7.2 Channel back in 2019 for $700. It was the previous year's model. It has two HDMI out, as well as 7.2 pre-outs. I plan to combine it with a three channel at some point for the front LRC. I see on Amazon the Marantz 8K UHD AVR SR5015 - 7.2 Ch (2020 Model) goes for $1000 with those capabilities. If you look around you might still find something in your price range..

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I actually really like my current amp still. I honestly only have one problem, which is that the voices/conversations are always drown out by music/sound effects/etc. I have to constantly turn the volume up and down when watching anything, or use subtitles. I really would love to stop having to use subtitles. I'm being told that having Atmos versus what I have now would likely solve that issue.

Perhaps, we should finally create a sticky thread to help address this frequently recurring issue (w/ some simple steps to viable solutions)... or maybe just sticky this recent thread?

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/co...dialogue-is-getting-worse.378351/post-5202666

I'm linking to my particular reply to that thread that hints/suggests a solution (or two)... though some of it is quite dependent on your exact AVR (or prepro in my case), but all AVRs/prepros usually come w/ some (albeit maybe less refined) variation of what my prepro can do.

Basically, after you're happy w/ how everything sounds w/ however you calibrate your system, except for dialog, add another 3-5db bump to your center channel, which all halfway decent, modern AVRs should allow. IF your AVR allows quick access to saved audio presets/profiles w/ such a tweak, save and use that as a separate setting for watching movies vs listening to surround music for instance.

IF you've never actually done much of any calibration/tweaks for your setup, then it's definitely time to look into that before considering a new AVR.

Also, after you've done the above, you might wanna consider making use of whatever dynamic audio compression mode to help further if/when needed... although a lower end AVR might possibly make the issue worse (due to lack of refinement) I suppose, but probably worth a try if the basic 3-5db bump of the center channel isn't enough (or somehow yields other unacceptable problems). I use this on my prepro only during times when I'm concerned about disturbing neighbors, but maybe you might find it helpful more regularly than that.

IF after all that, you're still considering an AVR upgrade in hopes of getting better results, then it might be worth looking for something that offers either Dirac Live or Anthem's ARC instead of Audyssey (or whatever else). Unfortunately, those 2 options usually require moving upto the (higher) budget level you don't want (though they probably usually come w/ other improvements that at least some of us think worthwhile). Some just completely bypass using any such auto (or semi-auto) calibration processes/algorithms, but that may require more time, effort, know-how, etc than you're prepared/willing to invest in lieu of $$$.

Room acoustics can definitely play a significant-to-crucial role in all this, and good calibration can make a real diff depending on that... although some of us are probably more old school and (strongly) prefer to prioritize (physically) minimizing room acoustics impact (and also choose certain levels of quality components) and rely much less, if at all, on DSP to compensate for that -- DSP (of various degrees of refinement) is what Audyssey, Dirac, Anthem's ARC, etc use to re-EQ the audio and do whatever other tweaks.

Also, consider whether the issue could be improved w/ better/new speakers too -- you haven't said what your speakers are so far (unless I missed it). That's certainly another possibility depending on what exactly you have.

As for why very many find such tweaks (and/or better components) necessary, read from the beginning of that (not terribly long) linked thread to understand the various factors discussed.

And oh, I don't think Atmos will help your issue at all. I've never actually gone Atmos though my current prepro is certainly capable. And I've never heard any (reliable) source claiming that going Atmos would help this issue.... at least not in general anyway. It's of course possible in some particular cases due to some particular mix of factors (including perhaps poor downconversion of Atmos tracks somewhere along the chain), but highly doubtful that would help much, if at all...

_Man_

 

[WhatDoIKnow]

Just took a quick look at the 665 manual, you already have pre-outs on that receiver.
...
[Other stuff I cut out so this post wouldn't be gigantic. But I reply to them below]
...
It's not louder, the sound is more spacious / open and more dynamic. As a result it also makes it clearer, but the receiver, by itself, never sounded "drowned" out.

See, I sorta was having those same thoughts. Maybe I should indeed spend more time on trying to fix what I have. The dialogue issue was the biggest motivator, but I decided to buy a new receiver for the combination of some other reasons as well. I figured: well this one I have now doesn't do 4K, doesn't have Atmos, no real multi-zone, etc etc, and on top of all this, the "voice thing" has been really irritating me in these last few years, so maybe its just time for a new one. I intended on spending more time on set-up/calibration with the new one. But now I'm definitely reconsidering.

Am I confident the receiver is set up correctly? No. Do you mean just the correct speakers plugged into the correct holes? If so, then yes, I'm confident.
I did use the set up mic, yes.
Decent center speaker? My guess is no. I have the Klipsch Quintet. Are these decent? It seems like they have new iterations of these, but I have the very first set, which I bought with the receiver back in 2010..or something. I have literally zero complaints with regards to how loud they can get, etc. But I am willing to buy a new center speaker with your/yalls recommendation. Or even a preamp and a new center speaker if someone thinks that's necessary, since I have these almighty pre-outs everyone loves.

Thank you for the preout explanation. Helps a lot.

I'd love to get more "spacious and dynamic."

Perhaps, we should finally create a sticky thread to help address this frequently recurring issue (w/ some simple steps to viable solutions)... or maybe just sticky this recent thread?
...
[Other stuff I cut out so this post wouldn't be gigantic. But I reply to them below]
...
(including perhaps poor downconversion of Atmos tracks somewhere along the chain), but highly doubtful that would help much, if at all...

_Man_

My first thread being made a sticky? See, I knew my mom was wrong when she told me I wouldn't amount to anything. Might have to change the title, though.

I read the thread; idk if I should be happy or sad that I'm not the only one with this problem. Ha.

I had tried that in the past, playing with the center levels. Right now my fronts are turned up to maybe 1/3 of the max and the center is almost all the way up. I did that a couple of years ago and it definitely helped, though I think the discrepancy between the fronts and the center shouldn't be so much. I definitely need to look into save audio presets. Never even thought about that. It'd be cool if I could do that now.

Something that I saw around these parts was regarding making sure the center speaker is at, or close to, ear level. Now I haven't tried that yet but if were to do that, the TV would be much higher than I want it to be, which I guess I'd have to live with. But the TV will go up on the wall, only over my dead body. I'm going to look for a taller entertainment center/TV stand. Is that a worthwhile tweak? I.e. having the center speaker at ear level? Is it not the same to have it over or under the TV with the speaker pointed at your head?

Dynamic audio compression mode? I'll have to look that up.
I'll have to look into how to improve room acoustics. I assumed my room wasn't that bad. I have regular (not tall) 8' ceilings and such. But you know what they say about ASSumptions...

I'm definitely willing to consider new speakers. Klipsch Quintet, is what I have.

Well, I kind of condensed a whole conversation I had with someone into one or two sentences, poorly. The bigger speculation regarding my need for Atmos wasn't necessarily that it was better at handling voice than other Dolby stuff, but that since everything nowadays comes in Atmos, maybe my receiver isn't equipped to handle it. So maybe when my receiver does it's thing, the audio gets messed up. Is that possible? Is that what you mean by "poor conversion of Atmos tracks?"


Seems like I have a lot of homework.

 

[WhatDoIKnow]

Since we're getting into recommendations it might make sense to mention that I sit 10' away from the TV. Room is 11.5' x 16'

 

[Old Dog]

You mention about the receiver not handling 4K, but that may not be a problem….. My previous Marantz receiver did not pass 4K either. My blu-ray player however had dual HDMI outputs, I used one output to send the 4K picture to the TV, the other to send the sound to the receiver. Another option is to feed the complete 4K signal to the tv and send just the audio via hdmi from the tv to the receiver.

Re I'd love to get more "spacious and dynamic."

First things first! I would definitely work on getting a better sound with the Yamaha as is with a simple “standard” speaker configuration (5.1) for starters, then move on to more channels and / or more power later so as not to make it even more complicated than present.

Re speakers, I don’t know much about the Quintet range (just the sales info I briefly read). There are a few people who don’t seem to like Klipsch. I actually have a Klipsch RP440C (not in use as I decided to get a Yamaha centre to match my front L/R), my opinion is that The 440C is really quite good, certainly very clear, and like most Klipsch speakers (including the Quintet) quite efficient at over 90dB. Having said that, it is quite a different animal to your Quintet speakers.

Re set up, you mentioned the fronts are turned up 1/3rd and the centre almost all the way up – according to the specs the centre is 3dB more efficient than the satellites (94dB vs 91dB), so this setting in itself seems rather odd – the centre should already be louder than the fronts without increased adjustment. If anything, to have required a reduction or the same would probably have been more usual (expected).

Just a thought, have you checked that all drive units in the speakers are working, especially the centre? If any tweeters have “blown” this will reduce the upper most frequencies.
Also make sure you have all speakers wired "in phase" - ie. red connections (+) on the amplifier are connected to the red (+) terminals on the speakers.

If all are ok, I would start by resetting the receiver and performing another new calibration with the mic. You could even try it two or three times, just to make sure you are getting consistent results.

You haven’t mentioned a sub. Speaker systems like the Quintet just don’t do bass, what sub are you using? If set incorrectly subs can really drown out other speakers. Could even try leaving the sub out when doing a calibration and see how the satellites and centre sound. Sub could perhaps be dialled in manually after.

Re centre speaker level, it’s always rather awkward due to the screen normally being at head height too. The centre can be above or below the tv, most would position them directly below. Raising the tv up on a taller stand could help if it is on a really low one at present.

There may be more ideas from others, but this is where I would start.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

IF your center speaker is placed inside some area in the cabinet, that could be an issue.

Ideally, speakers, especially the front LCRs, should really be allowed plenty of space to "breathe" around them to minimize any excess deflections/reflections that could confuse/degrade the sound to varying degrees. IF you can, I'd actually place the center speaker on its own separate stand in front of the cabinet/TV area, not flushed w/ the cabinet/TV. I don't bother using any cabinet at all for my setup, but let my center speaker sit on its own stand just in front of (and below) my projection screen -- my stand allows the speaker to be angled just enough to aim toward listeners' general ear level (roughly 9-10ft away).

Center speakers w/ coaxial drivers, ie. tweeter mounted in center of the midrange driver, especially if a 3-plus-way speaker, are usually/generally better, especially because of how they're usually intended to be used (horizontally).

Yes, many, especially audiophiles, do not like the Klipsch horn sound much... although some of them do feel their highest end Heritage models are pretty good, but generally not anything below those. Of course, a lot of this is relative and personal preference (combined w/ the actual price you pay and kinda budget limitations you have/allow)...

_Man_

 

[WhatDoIKnow]

You mention about the receiver not handling 4K, but that may not be a problem….. My previous Marantz receiver did not pass 4K either. My blu-ray player however had dual HDMI outputs, I used one output to send the 4K picture to the TV, the other to send the sound to the receiver. Another option is to feed the complete 4K signal to the tv and send just the audio via hdmi from the tv to the receiver.

Re I'd love to get more "spacious and dynamic."

First things first! I would definitely work on getting a better sound with the Yamaha as is with a simple “standard” speaker configuration (5.1) for starters, then move on to more channels and / or more power later so as not to make it even more complicated than present.

Re speakers, I don’t know much about the Quintet range (just the sales info I briefly read). There are a few people who don’t seem to like Klipsch. I actually have a Klipsch RP440C (not in use as I decided to get a Yamaha centre to match my front L/R), my opinion is that The 440C is really quite good, certainly very clear, and like most Klipsch speakers (including the Quintet) quite efficient at over 90dB. Having said that, it is quite a different animal to your Quintet speakers.

Re set up, you mentioned the fronts are turned up 1/3rd and the centre almost all the way up – according to the specs the centre is 3dB more efficient than the satellites (94dB vs 91dB), so this setting in itself seems rather odd – the centre should already be louder than the fronts without increased adjustment. If anything, to have required a reduction or the same would probably have been more usual (expected).

Just a thought, have you checked that all drive units in the speakers are working, especially the centre? If any tweeters have “blown” this will reduce the upper most frequencies.
Also make sure you have all speakers wired "in phase" - ie. red connections (+) on the amplifier are connected to the red (+) terminals on the speakers.

If all are ok, I would start by resetting the receiver and performing another new calibration with the mic. You could even try it two or three times, just to make sure you are getting consistent results.

You haven’t mentioned a sub. Speaker systems like the Quintet just don’t do bass, what sub are you using? If set incorrectly subs can really drown out other speakers. Could even try leaving the sub out when doing a calibration and see how the satellites and centre sound. Sub could perhaps be dialled in manually after.

Re centre speaker level, it’s always rather awkward due to the screen normally being at head height too. The centre can be above or below the tv, most would position them directly below. Raising the tv up on a taller stand could help if it is on a really low one at present.

There may be more ideas from others, but this is where I would start.

Yeah , the 4K thing is not such a big deal. I currently have a 4K TV and I deal with it just fine. I use a PC for all of my viewing needs. It has multiple outputs, so I just send the video to the TV and the audio to the receiver via optical cable, which I actually want to switch to HDMI. I've done some reading, and it is apparent that HDMI sends better audio than optical. I wish I had known... I can use one HDMI for audio and leave the other one as is for the TV.

"Another option is to feed the complete 4K signal to the tv and send just the audio via hdmi from the tv to the receiver."
I need ARC for this, no? My receiver doesn't have arc. My TV does.

As I was playing with the setup yesterday, I dropped one of my speakers. Just my luck, the screw in which you put the cable, hit the edge of the TV stand and broke the screw right in half. Woo!! So now I have a 4.1 setup lol. It seems like I can still make it work, but I ran out of time yesterday to keep messing with it.
But anyway, I have indeed been playing around a lot with the settings. I do feel like I've made a lot of progress. Playing around with the settings of the PC have also helped a good bit. I'm going to look at bringing the levels of the fronts back up, next, and seeing how things go.

If I were to get something like the RP440C, would I need to use them fancy pre outs? I've always thought those bigger speakers like that were either for show, or if I want to just get louder, for a bigger room, etc. Is that not the case? A bigger speaker like that will actually provide better quality voice/lyrics/dialogue? They're not just for swag/loudness?

Re drive units. I have stuck my ear all over them and I can't say that any one spot on the speaker isn't working. Is there a more official way of checking drive units? I went and checked again that everything is wired correctly. Red+ to red+
I have to go get the mic if I wanna try that again. Its in the attic, buried real deep. I'll see what I can do.

For a sub, I have the Klipsch SW-350. Is that any good? There are some connections back there I've never even touched. There's a dial on there that is labeled "lowpass." I don't even know what that means. Oh lord, more homework.
I do turn the sub off when I'm making adjustments to the speakers. I've never tried to leave it out while doing the calibration, though. I'll have to give that a shot.
The center isn't that low, but its lower than my ears for sure. The bottom of the speaker is 21" from the floor. My ears are 36" off the floor while fully leaned back on the couch. I haven't found a new TV stand I like.

So many moving parts..
Thanks for all the suggestions.

IF your center speaker is placed inside some area in the cabinet, that could be an issue.

Ideally, speakers, especially the front LCRs, should really be allowed plenty of space to "breathe" around them to minimize any excess deflections/reflections that could confuse/degrade the sound to varying degrees. IF you can, I'd actually place the center speaker on its own separate stand in front of the cabinet/TV area, not flushed w/ the cabinet/TV. I don't bother using any cabinet at all for my setup, but let my center speaker sit on its own stand just in front of (and below) my projection screen -- my stand allows the speaker to be angled just enough to aim toward listeners' general ear level (roughly 9-10ft away).

Center speakers w/ coaxial drivers, ie. tweeter mounted in center of the midrange driver, especially if a 3-plus-way speaker, are usually/generally better, especially because of how they're usually intended to be used (horizontally).

Yes, many, especially audiophiles, do not like the Klipsch horn sound much... although some of them do feel their highest end Heritage models are pretty good, but generally not anything below those. Of course, a lot of this is relative and personal preference (combined w/ the actual price you pay and kinda budget limitations you have/allow)...

_Man_

The center is out in the open right now, in front of the TV. But thanks for saying that because I might have ended up with some type of cabinet situation. I'll focus on stand-type situations. I prefer those anyway. And I guess maybe the TV will have to go up on the wall. Sigh.

Haters gonna hate. Some people hate Ford, some hate Ferrari. I love cars, you feel..? People need hugs.

 

[YANG]

...Does anyone have any recommendations for a receiver with pre-outs in the $700-$800 price range? All I want to do is a 5.1.2 ; maybe a 5.2.2. And with two HDMI outs...

any model new within that range?

nothing new from either product year 2022 or 2023, but probably earlier, the Marantz NR1711, which should be on the price slashing rack right now...