Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (Book 7) SPOILERS! SPOILERS! SPOILERS! (1 Viewer)

[seanOhara]

I take it from your referencing the movies that you haven't actually read the books? Because Snape's love life is a major plot point in the last book, and Hagrid's a subplot in the fourth and fifth. We also see some of the professors kiss during the various Christmas scenes, and dance together during the Yule Ball.

 

[Qui-Gon John]

I've read Azkaban recently. As to the movies, I do remember in Goblet, there was some dancing, don't recall kissing, except perhaps Hagrid with the big woman.

 

[Chris]

Yeah, actually by the end, the love story involving Snape is probably the most important subplot of the book series in that all other plots are changed and only really could occur with that story as a backbone.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Why is he or she a moron for asking? The books stand as they are, and whoever it was has a right to be curious. It does clarify several points in Deathly Hallows, and IMO makes Dumbledore more sympathetic not less. It probably pretty tough discovering you're gay growing up in the sheltered wizarding community. When he met an attractive young wizard that showed an interest in him too, it was only too easy to overlook that attractive young wizard's darker and unsavory qualities. Otherwise, it doesn't change one iota of the man he became. Why is this revelation so threatening to you?

 

[Adam_S]

as for the 'moron' who asked the question, nobody asked, "is Dumbledore gay?"

The question was:


No one was accusing you of homophobia, so why are you so ardently, preemptively defending yourself.

I think this if anything adds a heartbreaking texture to Dumbledore's backstory. Especially considering how homosexuals would have been treated in 1870s Britain when Dumbledore was in his twenties. This also fits in with nearly contemporaneous ambiguous characters of British writers of the time such as Wilde, so it's a nice literary nod as well to how these issues were handled in the literature and society of the age.

 

[Qui-Gon John]

Adam, the stories I read online didn't say she was asked. And when someone here said she was, that person didn't give the specifics you did, so it would have seemed the question was, "is Dumbledore gay". Which if that was asked, is moronic. Who cares! That's my whole point. He could have been straight, gay, only had sex with himself or never had sex of any kind, it has no bearing on the stories, as presented, (again, with the caveat of perhaps some subtle hints in the books, but not really in the movies, to date).

And I realize nobody was accusing me of being homophobic, which I'm not. It just has no place in these stories. In Six Feet Under, it was a major part of some of the major characters and handled quite well. It is as pointless as someone coming out and saying Scrooge was gay or any one of a thousand other fictional characters, whose story, as presented, does not indicate sexual preference in the least.

 

[andrew markworthy]

Oh boy, this topic really has ruffled some feathers!

I think the information is important and fleshes out one of the key characters. As I said in my previous post, Dumbledore's sexuality is hinted at for those well-read enough to pick up the cues, so it shouldn't be that big a surprise.

Love, in fact, is the prime mover of large chunks of the books, in various manifestations:

(1) Voldemort represents life without love and is ultimately destroyed because he failed to recognise the power of love. Voldemort was also conceived as a result of his witch mother deceiving his muggle father - i.e. he was born out of deception, not love.

(2) Snape represents the redeeming power of love

(3) Dumbledore represents the destructive power of love. Ironic, really, because he is the one who most strongly preaches to Harry about the power and importance of love

(4) The Dursleys represent the problems of excessive uncritical love (look at Dudley!)

and so on and so forth. But - and this is crucial - Rowling always presents the view that anybody is capable of redemption. Each character is at some point presented with their own crossroads when they can decide for themselves whether they will change the way they lead their lives. Wormtail redeems himself, so does Lupin, so does Dudley Dursley (you are, I think, meant to see that he has had a moment of epiphany and is gradually going to distance himself from his parents' outlook), and so do practically all the characters. Even Voldemort has his chance at the end of Book 7 - in effect, he kills himself. Harry doesn't kill Voldemort as much as turn V's evil back on himself. But V didn't have to issue the killing spell. He knew what would happen, and yet chose to do it.

At the risk of being even more pretentious, this all echoes the central tenet of Christian and other religious faiths about redemption. I have said in a previous thread that a lot of the talk about paganism, etc, is misguided. Like the ostensibly 'pagan' Lord of the Rings, the series has a religious theme running inexorably through it. In addition to the very obvious (Hogwarts keeps Christian holidays) there is the aforementioned redemption theme, and of course the whole issue of resurrection and life after death. For those who don't believe me, read the following from JKR's own lips:

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/157...17/index.jhtml

I think we're within forum rules talking about this, but please, nobody screw up what has been one of the most enjoyable threads on HTF by talking about religion except specifically in the context of themes and imagery.

 

[Ricardo C]

That's like saying "Remus dealt with Hermione like a normal father-daughter relationship, which meant Lupin likely stopped his heterosexual tendencies".

Homosexuality != Pedophilia.

 

[drobbins]

I am not a big Harry Potter fan, but my daughter is. We have watched the movies together many times, and she has seen them so many times by herself that she can recite the script word for word. The revelation that Dumbledore is gay did not need to be brought out if the vast majority of the population didn’t know it anyway. Judging by the posts here this information has no affect on the story. If it did, everyone would have realized it already. To me this is just annoying. I have no intention of telling her & I hope that she doesn’t find out on her own.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

The information does have an effect on the story, for the reasons already mentioned. I'm not sure what you're afraid of if your daughter finds out, but if you guys just stick to the movies I doubt it will be a concern anyway. The scripts will likely take care not to imply that Dumbledore is straight, but I doubt Warner Bros. will risk offending the Bible Belt by taking special effort to make a key character in one of its most lucrative franchises gay.

I think Richardo hit the nail on the head with "Homosexuality != Pedophilia." When we see priests and sports coaches get busted for abusing little boys, it conjures a dirty old man stereotype, not a person who took a good with ready access to children stereotype. For many, whether conciously or subconciously, Dumbledore with his white hair and beard, being gay plays into that dirty old man/priest/principal stereotype.

 

[andrew markworthy]

I am more than a little concerned about the implicit homophobia in some of these posts. If someone being gay concerns you, then that is, in this day and age, *your* problem, not Rowling's.

 

[drobbins]

Say I took my daughter to a restaurant for a steak dinner and she enjoyed very much. When she was finished, I decided to finish it and eat the last bite. To my surprise I find a dead fly under the last bit. This would be annoying. I would not tell her because it would not serve any good purpose. She has already enjoyed the meal and telling her would only detract from it. She would probably not want to eat at the restaurant again. If I knew about the fly before she ate any, I would have definitely sent it back. If in the first Potter book, Harry walked in on Dumbledore kissing another man, I would bet the first book would not have been such a best seller let alone there being a second or a movie.

Using the term “homophobia” implies a fear of gays. I don’t and I don’t know of anyone who does. I worked 5 years in a 4-man machine shop with the owner being gay and his boyfriend worked there also. They were not “fruitcakes” like is often portrayed in the media and were 2 of the most genuinely compassionate “human” people I have met. I am aware that there are many people who do not agree with my Christian lifestyle. The HTF forum rules even forbid me discussing my religion that is my lifestyle. Hopefully we can look past these differences that we will never agree upon, accept each other for who we are, and enjoy each others conversations here.

 

[Ricardo C]

Your choice of analogies negates your claim to accept people for who they are.

 

[JamesED]

I was disappointed that she let this out. I also don't find it to have any relevancy to the story.

 

[JayDerek]

wow. all of this anti-gay sentiment really surprises me here.

drobbins> that probably was one of the worst analogies you could come up with and still expect people to think you're not homophobic.

This is JK's series. These are HER characters. She can make any proclamation she likes about them, because they're hers to make!

 

[Chuck Mayer]

While I can't say I agree with some of the posts criticizing her decision, I haven't seen any "anti-gay" sentiment...that's reaching a bit based on most of the comments here. That's overstating it.

Like I said, I applaud her decision because of the great positive it provides...though the "revelation" adds little to the story itself.

 

[Ricardo C]

Comparing Dumbledore being gay with finding a dead fly on your plate sounds "anti" enough for me.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

That's why I wrote MOST, Ricardo.

 

[Chris]

Ok, I'll say it. I've had the night to think about it, and I dislike the "insight" for a totally different reason.. it takes some of the mystery away from the character. There have been discussions in several HP forums, etc. about characters, their motivation, etc.

Some things are best to the imagination. It's one of the things I dislike about movie versions of books. I seperate the two, even great to fantastic movie versions of a book have to be taken differently by me because they in no way can match up to the imagery I have in my mind, the way I think of the characters, how they should look, how they should act.

The great bonus about Harry Potter for a lot of people is that when reading, you try to see yourself as the protagonist, and Rowling does such a fantastic job of it you can. And she provides so little depth of cosmetic detail that you can insert yourself seemlessly into those roles.

The revelation about Dumbledore is fine in that it explains a great deal about the character, though it really doesn't effect the plot or telling of the story in any meaningful way. But on the other hand, it takes away some of the imagination of the audience. I always like unsaid things to stay unsaid because that's for the audience imagination to have.

Imagine it this way.. if during the interview someone said, whatever happened to Cho? Did she end up anywhere? And Rowling came out and said "Cho died in a terrible car accident, and that's it..." Ok, that's great and fine and she can do that with her characters, and it also has no impact anywhere on the plot of any of the books.. but it takes something away from the audience in that they can't imagine their own ending for the character.

So, I have no problem with her pronouncement, it's her characters, she can do that. And it can enrich the books in a way.. but it also takes away from the reading audience the thing that I love about books.. the ability for our imagination to fill in what we think / believe about characters.

Did Draco ever find some redemption and realize the wrong of his ways? I mean, he's obviously not castigated in the end....

It's just stuff like those events that I prefer are left to the audience to decide.

 

[Ricardo C]

You also said you hadn't seen ANY anti-gay sentiment. Selective reading on my part, sorry.