We can convert the masses to SACD! (1 Viewer)

[Jonathan Dagmar]

Well, actually, that is exactly what I am saying. I won't ever begrudge someone their opinion, but nor will I feel obliged to agree with it. Sure the first CDs sucked, but it has been many years since those days. In my opinion people who continue to insist that vinyl sounds better than the average cd made in the last decade do so out of nostalgia and nothing more.

 

[Jonathan Dagmar]

In that respect, the hybrid does have promise. But again, we would first need

a.) all albums to be on hybrid discs
b.) the market standardized on either DVD-A or SACD.

The problem with hyrbid discs for me, is the same problem I have with double sided DVDs, they look ugly, and they are not user friendly. If I know ahead of time that the movie I am buying some on a double sided disc, I think twice and only buy it if it is an all time favourite.

Let me re-enforce one point that someone esle has made. MOST people use their music only for ambiance. At home, they really are very happy with a cheap mini system, or even one of those fancy boom boxes with ultra cool "detachable" speakers. I had one of those when I was 10 and I that's sure the way I thought of it. In the car, they are perfectly content with the underpowerd stock stereo syetem, unless they are lameasses with overcranked subwoofers and a collection of cd burned with stolen MP3s.

And I'll agree that it has been at least a decade since any worhtwhile music has been porduced by a new artist. 99% today's music is so bloody awful....and this coming from a 19 year old.

Bottom line, there simply is not any demand for a new audio format. Consumers don't know about it, and if they did, I am pretty sure they would not care. Even my mom, a singer/songwriter, stares at me blankly when I mention anything even remotely related to the audio/video world.

 

[Doug_H]

Jonathan

This simply isn't true. Technology simply has not created anything that can equal vinyl. I don't begrudge you your opinion I just have to believe you haven't heard what it is capable of.

Very few have the equipment to hear the difference and that makes CD the best option for most but for those who have the true high end systems and can nudge every little bit out of the music DVD-A/SACD are a not as good. They can be almost as good but not quite there.

digitized sound simply cannot recreate perfectly the depth and heart of music. digitizing any music leaves a hard edge to it. It removes some of the life. You can pair a player up with components to remove some or most of the edge but it isn't the same.

Vinyl leaves the entire process from record to speaker in analog. There is nothing digital between you and the music. There are no bitrates to limit you, no decoding to be done. Pure simple perfection as it was laid down in the studio.

Vinyl isn't for everyone or even many of us. My appreciation doesn't come from spinning discs myself. I do however visit a close friend every chance I get and we have run the CD vs vinyl comparisons on his ultra high end system and there is no comparison at all. If I brought a high end turntable into my system I wouldn't see much gain.

For all but a few elite folks out there CD is the answer. For the few who can and do appreciate it it will be a long time before vinyl is bested.

 

[Mike Broadman]

Hybrid SACDs look exactly the same as regular CDs and are packaged the same (in fact, the SACD jewel cases are way nicer).

I don't see why anyone would think it's not user friendly- just put the disc in and push play. Quite simple, really. Much better than DVD-A, which sometimes requires menus or the "group" button.

 

[BrianB]

Wow.

 

[Jeff Adams]

Jonathan, if you have heard vinyl on a true high end system and your ears still think cd's sound better on that exact same system then that is your personal preference. If you have not heard vinyl on a high end system then you really should not compare vinyl to cd. Cd's do sound good these days but I have heard what vinyl sounds like on a $75k 2 channel audio system and it is breath taking. That same system had SACD hooked up to it and SACD sounded as good. I also listened to normal redbook cd's on this same system and although the cd playback of the system was stellar, cd's did not sound nearly as warm and real as vinyl or SACD. IMO vinyl and SACD are far superior to cd. I only wish I had that kind of money to spend on my own system. The products I litened to were a Michel Gyro turntable,Mark Levinson amps and pre amps and B&W Nautilus speakers.

 

[MattBu]

This is just YOUR opinion. You can't operate as if you are speaking facts when you are just dealing in the realm of opinion. There is NO impirical science at work here. I promise you that most people could tell the difference between SACD and Vinyl, but only because of the inherant flaws in Vinyl after repeated playing. I dont believe that there is some echelon of quality at which Vinyl becomes spiritual.

THIS IS ALL JUST RETRO BIAS. I understand the flaws you believe CD to hold, but the BEAUTIFUL thing about CD or SACD or DVD-Audio is that it's GREAT sound every single time, and identical sound every single time. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy, every single person talks about the breath and airyness that vinyl provides and so we've come to believe that nothing else can re-produce this. The music itself isn't analog. It's being mixed and produced on a computer. Much in the same way that someone claimed that because the signal stays analog all the way it sounds more pure, to me it makes more sense that if it starts off as digital, you cannot make it sound analog.

 

[Doug_H]

Matt

He didn't say SACD sounds better than vinyl, he said your average CD sounds better than vinyl and that is wrong. It isn't conjecture it is a fact. The low bitrates available on your average cd do not in any way compare to vinyl.

CD can sound very good and and I do most of my listening on CD. I am not saying CD should be scrapped or that anyone should discontinue use. I am saying hands down vinyl wins over CD by a large margin on a high end system.

 

[MattBu]

This is not a fact!!! NOTHING about opinion is fact. That's HIS opinion!

What you just said is akin to me saying

"Filet Mignon tastes better than Salisbury Steak"

Filet Mignon is MUCH more expensive, it has finer marbling. But it's all preference. You cannot imperically isolate TASTE, and this is a matter of taste. If Vinyl was a perfect recreation this would be closer to apples to apples, but it's not. There are inherant pops and transfer noise involved in Vinyl.

 

[LanceJ]

Oh my goodness here we go again. :rolleyes

Is there some official audio handbook that declares vinyl as The Ultimate Sound Reproduction Format? Unless this is so, this constant touting of vinyl as being such is really, REALLY becoming tiresome.

Vinyl is so full of mechancial, electrical and sonic deficiencies that I don't know where to begin.....and I won't because me and several other people here have written about them numerous times.

Not everyone thinks warm sound translates to good sound. To many people it means a dull, veiled and uninvolving listening experience.

CD's low bitrate is a problem? Compare that with vinyl's large assorted palette of MASKING distortions and IMO you end up with a playback format significantly worse than CD.

And the digital/CD/solid-state fans almost never come on to forums blabbing about their chosen formats & stating opinions as facts.

LJ

 

[Rachael B]

I've compared quite a few SA-CD's to vinyl and I find them to sound remarkably similar. You don't need extremely expensive equipment to notice vinyl is a formidable format IMO.

 

[Doug Otte]

Whew! I guess I opened a can o' worms, eh?



Doug_H & Jeff, I agree that good equipment will show off hi-rez better than cheap equipment, but let me be the poster boy to refute your statements that you can't hear the difference on cheap stuff.

I bought cheap stuff for my HT a few years back because I didn't think it would make much difference for movies (d'oh!). Now that I'm into SACD, I'm planning on upgrading to something better; just haven't found the time to go out & audition. Anyhoo...

Even w/ my Sony 755 player, Sony DE receiver, & cheapo JBL speakers (embarrassed to admit that amongst you folks), I can definitely hear the difference. I must admit that it's hard to hear the difference on recordings where the SACD & CD layers were both made from a good DSD master, such as Gabriel's So or Passion. In general, though, there is a definite improvement that has made me passionate about music again.

I agree w/ many here, though, who say that the average Joe/Jane doesn't really care. That will be the big difficulty to overcome if hi-rez is to succeed.

Cheers,
Doug

 

[Ted Todorov]

Spending the $75K on having a couple of world class string quartets play in your living room would indeed produce breath taking results. Of course for a lot less money you can simply go to a few concerts in cities with concert halls with great acoustics and have an even more breathtaking experience.

But of course we have no idea what the music being played on the $75K system is -- it could be Van Halen for all we know.

I'm sorry, but vinyl advocates need to re-examine their priorities -- are they really interested in music or in something else? If they were actually interested in music, I think that the $75K would get spent on something other than trying to make vinyl sound good... In my case, if I wanted to most improve my at home sound experience, I'd move to a home with more space and better acoustics.

To get back on topic -- I don't see the masses being converted to SACD (even less so to DVD-A). The masses listen to their music through glorified boom-boxes. They leave their CDs lying around without jewel cases getting scratched and dirty. The masses listen to Britney Spears, not Kathleen Battle. They listen to low bit rate MP3s over shitty computer speakers. They will never convert to a format that doesn't allow them to rip their discs to listen on their portable digital music player. (That's why SACD has an advantage over DVD-A: those with a redbook layer can still be ripped to AAC/MP3, etc.)

Ted

 

[Thomas Newton]

I don't listen to music through glorified boom-boxes. I don't leave CDs lying around without jewel cases getting scratched and dirty. I don't (voluntarily) listen to Britney Spears. When I listen to music through computer speakers, it's because I'm working at the computer -- not because I think the computer speakers are better than my stereo system.

But you're right that I have no intention of converting to any copy-protected "replacement" for CDs.

 

[Jeffrey R]

Thomas,

That's obviously your choice to make, but I can tell ya, you're missing out. Hi-rez audio is the real deal, and it will be very unfortunate if the formats don't catch on. Having bought about 10-20 DVD-A and SACD's already, the results have been impressive enough that I will continue to buy hi-rez disks. You're certainly not alone in your views, though.

 

[Rachael B]

It cost me about $75, not 75K, to obtain a used turntable that's competative with a Sony SCD-XA777ES. In fact, I only have a handful of SACD's that are competative with the better 12" D.J. singles. That's out of 300+ SACD titles too. Long play vinyl albums vary alot more in quality for a long list of well known reasons. I have plenty that will take your breath away on a system worth less than $5000.

 

[Jonathan Dagmar]

Am I to understand that Hyrbid SACDs are not double sided?

 

[Jonathan Dagmar]

To ignore Hip Hop? Who says I am ignoring hip hop?

I was exxagerating in my originl statement. There are a few, a very few decent artist that have emerged in the last 10 years. Eminem is good. Alanis Morisette is good.

By and large the rest of popular music is ****. Every decade previous, and the early part of the 90s have had a unique and listenable sound. Todays Rock music is awful. Nickleback is popular WHY? Britney Spears is the queen of pop why? Justin Timberlake still sells recrods, WHY? Sum 41 is huge WHY? Nelly is popular, WHY? Beyonce?

The current state of popular music is why all my radio presets are classic rock/pop stations. I haven't listened to a top 40 station in five years, and there are only a very few current popular artits I whos music I enjoy. Perhaps thinks will improve in the next decade.

And in case you think I am just a grumpy old man: I'm 19.



As for the stiry my "cd is better that "vinyl" comments created I am a little perplexed. I mean, I used the word "opinion" several times in my post, and yet more than a few people felt the need to point out that that was only my opinion. Hello? I thought I said that?

To qualify my statement I will say that I do not own a $75,000 sound system. One day I shall be so lucky. However my dad does own a rather expensive 1970s era system that has been couple with a pair of colossal home built speakers. They are enourmous hardwood boxes with 10", 6" and 3" woofers, along with several tweeters. I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling they would sound better than a lot of qualitycommerical speakers. My dad has a small collection of LP (be burnt most of them when he was in his 20s during his hardcore church days, thank god he became sane again and rebuilt his music collection with cds.) a couple of years ago he played an LP version and a CD version of the same recording for me (dont ask what it was, I honestly cannot remember). To my ears the more precise, clean, and dare I say accurate sound of the CD was better than the LP. That's my opinion and I am sticking to it.

In no way do i dispute that SACD or DVD-a sounds better than CDs. Obviously they do, and any comment I have made about either of thos formats is independent of my opinion of vinyl.

 

[Danny Tse]

No, they are not double-sided. They are dual-layered and read from one side only.

 

[Jonathan Dagmar]

Interesting. I wonder how this is accomplished? I can obviously see how SACD players would be garenteed to cope with them, but I wonder how many standard cd players will choke on them....

Related question, will hyrbid DVD-As be double sided? If they are I can certaoinly see SACD completely dominating the market as a single sided disc much preferable to horrible flippers.