URGENT REQUEST for help with JVC AV27S33 Tint Problem (re: calibration) (1 Viewer)

[george_clark]

Thanks, again, Jack.

I've spent lots of time over the past several days trying to get the color right. Several times I've got it to the point where I'm quite happy, then later I find myself tweaking again. So I decided to set everything and just leave it alone but watch to see whether anything changes. What I've discovered is, as I mentioned to you several days ago, the color balance is not constant. It changes over a period of perhaps 1/2 hour as the set warms up and also from channel to channel, especially from satellite to antenna. So having verified that, I'm again not very satisfied. Have you noticed this sort of inconsistency at all?

I decided that the red push does need attention. Without modifying this setting, most of the picture looks dull and washed out if I set the facial color correctly.

I have eleven more days to decide whether to keep the set or return it for refund. I'll decide by this Friday so I can move onto other things.

Regards,

geo

 

[Jack Johnson]

George:


First, just a quick favor: I wonder if you could tell me what your factory setting value for "S21 NTSC MAT" is--under menu option 1 in service mode--while monitoring V2 as an input source (or whatever input source corresponds on your set with component input for dvd, etc). Stupidly, I never recorded the factory pre-set under that mode and accidentally changed it. No big performance issue there, just didn't want to lose track of factory settings in the event that I have to re-set them all before taking the unit in for any possible service during warranty period. Of course, yours may be different; I'm pretty sure mine was initially on "002," and I guess I'm just looking to validate my hunch. Thanks a million.


As for color hue incosistency, I do notice a broad range of discrepancy from source to source under composite (antenna and satellite), and I find myself compelled to tweak virtually each and every channel in the user settings if I stay on a certain program for more than a minute or so. But then that's my usual drill on any television, since--even from commercial to commercial, program to program--the color spectrum changes drastically along with the quality of the original video source, etc.

Your best bet for determining if you still have a probelm there would be to compare the JVC to your old standby set again to see how it handles some of the same images. Because there's a lot of stuff out there that simply looks crappy and poorly balanced on the best calibrated sets.

In terms of a gradual shift in color balance as the set warms up, I have read references to waiting about a half hour before doing any fine adjustment because of this phenomenon, but if you're seeing a striking difference, I just don't know. Could be a dramatic shift is a sign of a problem, but I imagine subtle "warm-up" differences are just a reality of the hardware involved. That probably doesn't help you much.

In terms of that washed-out look you're associating with red push, it could also be a sign of pushing the red and blue cuts and drives just a little too far when compensating for the greenish tint. That's the real trick of this game; eliminating inappropriate, problem green while not drowning everything in a blue/red haze. It took me a few tries to get it in the ball-park, and the rest I can handle in the user settings... If you haven't already tried it, experiment with adding a fixed number--not a percentage--on top of each of the red and blue cuts and drives settings and then watch a few things whose color balance you know really well; subtly back off on or ratchet up the drives and cuts a few points until your TINT range seems faithful. Then see if it stacks up against you other set on a wide variety of channels, video sources. I'm sure you've been there, done that, and I wouldn't blame you for junking the JVC on the grounds that life's just too short... I'd go with my gut if I were you.

Boy, this has been quite the journey, hasn't it?



As for things on my end, last night I took a look at "The Ring" on dvd again, which was probably the most heinously, wronfully green thing I ever watched on the AV-27S33 before calibrating the grey scale, and was pleased to see that the tv was now properly decoding the predominantly blue/grey, and deep blue/green color scheme as blue/grey and not green/green, green and more green. It was a nice way to celebrate my washing my hands of this business!


Well, I hope your decision making process isn't too arduous or unpleasant.


Keep me posted...


--Jack

 

[george_clark]

Jack;

I'm very familiar with S21, because that and S44 are what I've been using to correct the red push. S21 default was 003, which is also the maximum setting. I didn't see any effect of reducing that to 002 or 001. But in going from 001 to 000, the red push was significantly changed.

Yes, I have been comparing the JVC to my old set when I notice the variation of colors. For example, when I first turn on the set, it's too red as compared to my old set. Then gradually it changes to be just fine or slightly green. I've tried to watch/confirm that my old set isnt' really the one changing, and I think I have verified that. Even looking just at the JVC I notice too much red during the first 30 minutes or so, then OK or slightly green. Same for comercial variations. The old set handles the variations much better.

Yes, I've tried the fixed 20 points or so addition. Perhaps I wan't careful enough to change one thing at a time and really notice whether it fixed the problem or just added another issue. I think I'll do that one more time and be careful to note the effect.

Yes, I think this has been an interesting journey. I've learned quite a bit, although not sure how I'll use that knowledge in the future. :-|

Thanks again for your inputs.

geo

 

[Jack Johnson]

Thanks, Geo. Just to verify, that default setting for S21 was for component--V2--and NOT composite (V1)?

I did notice an improvement in overall redishness when taking that value a few notches, so now that I've established the factory pre-set, I'll experiment with leaving it down for a while.

S44 I haven't tinkered with, so I'll check the effect on that as well.




As for the 16:9 feature possibly being built-in to some JVC sets...while it's only accessible through manual tinkering in most--if not all of JVC's domesitcally sold sets--I noticed an interesting toggle switch value under the System menu in service mode. Don't remember the name, but it was called "16:9 mode," with either a zero or one value. It'd be interesting to know whether--with a "1" plugged in there--if there'd be any way to get the set to kick into that mode automatically with the right hardware; a remote with a 16:9 button, say. Guess I'm not likely to ever know, since I'm sure these US sets just aren't hard-wired for it. Good thing I can do it in service mode...


--Jack

 

[Jack Johnson]

George,


One quick addition...as I'm beginning to border on obsessing over this thing.


I did notice EXACTLY what you're referring to in terms of a reddish, almost purple pre warm-up sepiatone that's present for a few minutes before the color and tint balance normalizes, so it's very likely a quirk of this particular make of set. Couldn't have lasted more than five to ten minutes on my unit.

If you're sure you can't live with that, your decision making process may have just gotten easier.


--Jack

 

[george_clark]

Jack;

Sorry, I misled you. The S21 default value of 003 which I gave you was for the composite input, not the component input. I checked the default for the component, and it's 002 as you also found.

Yes, I noticed the 16:9 setting also. Are you thinking that it would auto-set the anamorphic squeeze mode? No harm in playing with it to see what happens, right? ;-) I also noticed a PIP setting that could be set to 1. But even if it can be enabled, a remote would be required to select the channel. I wish I knew someone who owned an AV36S36 so I could borrow their remote and play with it. But, of course, if I don't keep the set, it's academic anyway.

Yes, I suppose we are both obsessing over this. Seems we are geeks at heart and can't give up without conquering this thing. Concerning the initial red/purple warm-up, one idea would be to use the Standard-Dynamic-Sports video status menus to correct for it. That is, have the Standard settings be what you want for steady state, and have the Dynamic settings correct for the warm-up color. Start with Dynamic, then just switch to Standard after ten or fifteen minutes. It's a kludge and only a partial fix, because the cuts/drives would probably need to be adjusted to really clean it up. But the video status is probably adequate as a compromise.

Still undecided about keeping my unit. Ten days to go. I'll let you know.

Regards,

geo

 

[george_clark]

Jack;

Last night, I viewed a VHS tape which I had recorded earlier this week. I had both old and new TV going through the entire program. Prior to watching the recorded program, I surfed some of the satellite and live antenna channels. The colors on the live programs was rather OK after the initial warm up period. Then I began the taped program. For that program, the JVC color was very red, while being essentially OK on my old set. About 1-1/2 hour into the 2-hour program, the color on the JVC suddenly became much better. Still a bit too red, but not objectionable. After the program ended, I rewound to the early portion of the tape where I had seen the excessive red. It was essentially OK, whereas it had been much too red an hour before. So I feel I've confirmed that the JVC has non-constant color balance from time to time. I feel this is unacceptable, because no matter how much tweaking I do, it will never be correct. The set is going back this Saturday.

Before returning it, I plan to play around with some of the other service menu items, like the 16:9 and PIP. I'll let you know if I find anything interesting.

My next step is to try another 36-inch brand or model. I won't do that until late May, due to vacation plans. Keep in touch, and let me know if you discover any more useful or interesting information.

Best wishes,

geo

 

[Jack Johnson]

Geo,

Thanks for looking into that S21 setting for me; I've got it straight now.

All we need to see if those internal settings "enable" automatic features like 16X19 is some kind of interface, a button or something. It's a good bet the circuitry just ain't there to make some of these things happen. But it's great that it's very easy to do a manual anamorphic squeeze; I've watched a couple films this way, and it makes a big difference. I lose all sense of lines of resolution. The image is very detailed, razor sharp; film-like.

Based on what you're seeing with significant color changes over such long periods, I can't fault you for deciding to return your set. Fortunately, whatever change I do notice comes in the first few minutes of warm-up, and from then on things seem very stable.

I've gone back and forth on this, but it's now apparent that the component mode will require less of a boost to eliminate the greenish tint. A full twenty point increase on the red and blue cuts and drives--which is perfect for composite mode--is just overkill for dvds. So I'm back down to 15...and as I view more things I'll drive that up or down until it's as close to perfect as I can get it. "S21 NTSC MAT" may ultimately play a role in all this too, since--when zeroed out--it does make a hell of an impact on how much of a kick the reds get. That one setting has probably solved "red push" for some people.



Well, may your next set serve you better. Let me know what you go with, how it performs, etc.


On a side note, Consumer Reports recently published their "Biggest TV Issue Ever" which might come in handy--the March 2003--issue, and they do a breakdown of some conventional TVs in the 27, 32 and 36 inch measurement. I was pleased to see they rated the JVC AV27D303 very well--their #5 rated model--since that set is almost identical to mine in the picture department; it just has marginally better speakers for 30 bucks more than what I paid for the AV27S33. But since I intended to bypass the built-in speakers anyway, going with the cheaper model was a no-brainer.




--Jack

 

[george_clark]

Jack;

I'd appreciate any updates you have, even though I'm returning my set. One of the alternatives I'm considering is a different JVC model, specifically the AV36320. So probably most of what you and I have discovered will apply to that model.

Thanks for the tip about Consumer Reports. I'll definitely review it.

geo

 

[Jack Johnson]

geo:


Made a few discoveries in adjusting my ol' JVC-AV27S33 (yep, still tweaking!).

I increased the blues while taking several points off the Reds. Seems to have made all the difference, and I can stop kidding myself about having gotten it right the first time. I've moved far enough away from green, while dealing with the side effect of things getting a little red-biased. I'm dead-on with my reference Panasonic, but for opting for a tinge less green overall.

I'm done now... And hey, the process only took a few years off my life.

For kicks, when I'd finished, I reset everything to factory defaults and was aghast all over again at JVC's allowing product to leave the plant with the grey scale so throughly off-the-mark.


my first stab:

S11 R Cutoff 88
S12 G Cutoff 40 (unchanged)
S13 B Cutoff 86
S14 R Drive 95
S15 B Drive 84


the revised and final attempt:


S11 R Cutoff 79
S12 G Cutoff 40 (unchanged)
S13 B Cutoff 88
S14 R Drive 80
S15 B Drive 88


original factory settings:



S11 R Cutoff 68
S12 G Cutoff 40
S13 B Cutoff 66
S14 R Drive 75
S15 B Drive 64






AND:


I've discovered that my component--V2 Mode--settings need no attention at all. In theory--if I understand this correctly--the signal from my dvd player is delivered to the television with independent Red/Blue/Green signal information, and that with my TINT control left at dead center...I'm pretty much getting a faithful rendering of the source signal. Compared againt my computer's default setting dvd output, this seems to be true.

Initially, I had kept my TINT settings used in composite mode for dvd viewing in V2 (component input), with disastrous results...because pre-calibrating, I'd often had the TINT bar very far left, which has the ironic effect of introducing green into grey/blue color spectrums, which created the impression in certain films with a heavy grey/blue color scheme--"The Ring" for example--of the greenish grey scale problem also being present in the component mode. Not at all true.

Why would green ever be introduced by going left on the TINT scale? Not sure, but I've verified that this also happens on my Panasonic TV and computer in certain color spectrums. Flesh tones will get redder, but other hues often go in an unanticipated direction (as toward green, say)...and it all probably has to do with color relationships I don't fully understand yet.


So, in component mode, less tinkering--in fact, none at all--seems to be more. This is supported by the fact that all the the grey scale adjustments in service mode are zeroed out in V2, suggesting the TV "defaults" to the parent signal coming in from the dvd player over those independent red, blue and green cable inputs. With composite mode (V1), I think all the color information comes in over one signal...and so the TV needs be instructed--via each of the drives and cuts--what emphasis to give each color element.

Just a theory, based on only a little knowledge, and I may or may not be off base.



As far as my component service mode settings (V2) are concerned, though, factory defaults seem quite fine--terrific, in fact--with the past few films I've played, with the TINT user settings at dead center... If I find this not to hold true, I'll let you know.


--Jack

 

[george_clark]

Thanks again, Jack. Yes, you've certainly invested a lot of time in this. What better way to spend a weekend?

I haven't tried the other JVC model yet, although I intend to do so in a couple of weeks. Also, I'm considering the Hitachi 32UDX10S, which is HDTV, but only 32 inches. (The 36UDX10S won't fit into my entertainment unit without a modification of the unit's door hinges.)

One question on your "final" settings: Are you still adjusting the red push with S21, or have you returned that to the factory default?

Regards,

geo

 

[Jack Johnson]

George:


Excellent question: I did all tweaking with S21 in the factory default mode, which I think is "003" for V1; it's a good bet that's refelcted in the red drive and cut values I ended up with.

I wonder, now, what sort of person I'd be if I wasn't actively engaged in tweaking my television.

With some of my labor invested, though, I think I'm getting more enjoyment out of the set than I would have otherwise.



--Jack



Oh, out of curiosity, I may plug in your last posted values to see how my set performs with those (with and without s21 engaged); I'll keep you posted. I can't stop!

 

[george_clark]

Jack;

Hope all is well with you and your beloved TV!

Here's where I stand: I tweaked the JVC more, but just couldn't get it up to my satisfaction. The warm-up period was excessive, and I could never get the red push versus green tint balanced as I wanted. So I returned it. I bought the Hitachi 36UDX10SA. Lots more money, but also more features. HDTV-ready, one-button anamorphic squeeze, several component inputs, variable audio output, progressive scan, etc. I initially really screwed up its service menu settings, but eventually discovered how to recover. Now I'm at the point of being happy with it. So that's my final situation.

I enjoyed chatting with you.

Regards,

geo

 

[shigella]

Help!

I've been reading and reading and reading all your posts and I feel so overwhelmed. I can't even figure out how to get to the service page to reconfigure my tv. I bought the JVC AV-27s33 from a stranger. Kind of like a yard sale type thing. She said it was about 6 years old, so I'm thinking somewhere around 2002-2003 model or close to that.

When it was plugged into her cable it looked great and I thought this was a great deal. Well, the first day I had it plugged in at my house with a converter box (I don't have cable) it looked okay but like all of you, it had a greenish tint. After fiddling with the very basic controls and looking at the users guide, my problem only got worse. Now it is dark and green and ready for a junk pile.

In my desperation, I searched endlessly on the internet for a solution. I have been to many sites but nothings working. I went to a calibration site and it says something about a "tune in" remote and blinking lights. My control doesn't have a green light. The tv control I have is very basic. No lights or what I would consider "special keys". It has an Input key, display,hyper sur. (which I'm thinking is something to do with surround sound), video status menu and v-chip. That is about it. It does have a vcr/dvd area for controlling such devices at the bottom, but thats it. I have pushed buttons with other buttons to see if anything would work, nothing. At this time I don't think I could do any worse than what it is now.

Now after all that, phew, can anyone help me just access the service menu in order to start calibration. I would get a service manual but don't drive at this time, so am unable to get to a store.

If anyone could just give a step-by-step tutorial on how to get to the service menu, I would so appreciate it. Can anyone help, or should I just give up. I have a feeling to take it to a technician would cost me more than what I paid for the TV.

Thank you for listening to the ramblings of a stressed out person.

Rae

 

[Robert_J]

Welcome to HTF. Just a tip, reviving 6 year old threads doesn't help much. Start a new thread in the Displays section where a few professional calibrators hang out. They should be able to help you with your TV's color issue.

-Robert