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Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Ronald Epstein, Feb 1, 2013.
Perhaps it's time to start.
On 3/21 they mentioned on their Facebook page that this title might be delayed a couple weeks. So I'm guessing either 3/29 or 4/5 preorder date if not sometime in between.
So the fake music created with editing for the1776 LD is ok. It seems to me your guide to what is integrity and what is not is down to what you personally like...
Mr Redman clearly states that had they been able to include both versions there never would have been the score option you advocate, it was merely a compromise at the time that is no longer necessary. Cleopatra is a straw man because nobody can say what they would do until the footage is found. Your real comparison is Deems Taylor's voice on Fantasia...
I don't recall a new score or new music being commissioned for the 1776 LD. What I heard was the original version of a whole song being restored to what it always had been and still is on-stage that was then for reasons still impossible to fathom, taken out again for the DVD. The much maligned Overture was also created specifically from materials indicating that this was how such an Overture/Entr'acte was to be created, again using materials that were part of the original production. Now if you'd composed a new Overture decades later for the LD then we'd be talking about something else.
I'm already on record as saying that I don't have a problem with alternate scores that are a part of the original production history (Herrmann "Torn Curtain") so I don't see any inconsistency in the position I've taken on this film with regard to any other film.
As for saying the "compromise is no longer necessary" this again gets back to the point I made earlier how it seems that those who prefer the original score are the ones who must be saddled with the second-rate treatment if it's "not necessary" to have the authentic score from the time period attached to a cut of the film that simply strengthens the narrative.
I'm not sure I know what song you mean. Surely you're not talking about "Cool Considerate Men" since that is on the DVD now. A verse of "Piddle, Twiddle, and Resolve" and the reprise of "The Lees of Old Virginia" were/are missing, however.
Yes, I am talking about "Piddle, Twiddle" and then there's the removal of the underscore of the John/Abigail scene in the tower before the reprise of "Yours, Yours, Yours" which had been part of every version of the film going back to the first cut. The full version of "Piddle, Twiddle" was just as an important part of the restoration of the film on the LD as was "Cool Considerate Men".
I'm referring to the Overture and Intermission music, which were created out of the songs backing scores for the laserdisc and were never intended.The other changes on the DVD reflect the intent and wishes of the director which he was not able to execute in 1972 due to the producer making changes after he had been led to believe the picture was locked.Again, we're back to your personal opinion and not that of the people creating the work.
There was no new music commissioned for "1776". Nothing on the order of a whole new score composed for a film 40 years after the fact. My chief objection with "1776" has always been the edits made after the LD cut to the songs ("Piddle, Twiddle And Resolve") and the underscore. The former is how the material has always been performed and is still performed on-stage, and the latter reflects how things were done originally and which the director himself approved of in an audio commentary for the LD. I do not believe his later stories that what was done on the LD was done without his consent.
Of course the whole matter of the score replacement on "Major Dundee" was the ultimate example of "personal opinion" which is not a basis I would use for the wholesale replacement of a music score in any context, other than to present an alternate score *alongside* the original score that was composed as part of the original production history of the film. The area of disconnect that you seem to be incapable of understanding is that regardless of what my own "personal opinion" happens to be, I'm not the one calling for the suppression of the version that doesn't reflect the matter of what my "personal opinion" preference happens to be. I would never have created an alternate score for this movie to begin with, and think the practice is as wrong as colorization of a movie, but I wouldn't be advocating that the long cut be released on Blu-Ray *only* with the original score. For this movie, my position is calling for the same "freedom of choice" (a proper use of the term) for the consumer that was allowed on the DVD selection to let the viewer judge whether the expanded cut really needs a new score or not (just as my preference for "1776" would have been to allow for both the LD cut and the one Peter Hunt is so obsessed with). I don't see why that matter should be arbitrarily decided based on the "personal opinions" of others that the audience should not be allowed to see the film this way when it has been made available in the past. And if I end up having to be critical of the powers that be at TT for their actions, so be it. This frankly is a much more serious issue for me than say, the one in the other thread about the "Shane" aspect ratio where you also have people arguing about the need for multiple versions etc.
Twilight Time has posted on their Facebook Page that they sold almost 500 copies last Friday. The first day it was on sale.
When I expressed interest in any recommendations regarding the order someone new to Major Dundee should watch the theatrical and extended cuts, the possibility of viewing yet another made-in-DVD 'frankencut' in which the original theatrical score was stitched together with the extended version (thus leaving the extended footage scoreless?), frankly never would have occured to me. Sorry Jack P., but that netherworld third option just strikes me as rather weird somehow. Logically, doesn't the Amfitheatrof score belong with the theatrical cut, and the Caliendo score with the extended cut?
So I think my sequencing with this baby will be theatrical, extended, and then finally extended plus commentary. Really looking forward to this one since it represents 100% new Peckinpah for me...
If that option strikes you as "weird" then you have just proved my point that consistency would require throwing out every note Alex North composed for "Cleopatra" and commissioning a new score if all the missing footage for that film were found and assembled into a new cut of the film. But if you don't accept that argument, then there is nothing "weird" about merely asking that a movie that only in the final analysis adds some extra footage from 1964 to a movie made in 1964 should still have the score that was composed that year for the original film with the necessary augmentations made to cover the fact that no score was originally composed for the new sequences because of reasons that were totally outside the control of the original composer.
If you even read Mr. Redman's post, you will find that this alternate score was concocted only *after* the extended cut *with* it's original score was first assembled and it was only because they dissed it so much in the commentary track that Sony agreed to the very unprecedented idea of replacement. The idea was to in effect validate the debatable argument that this score was the reason why the film turned out badly, which I think is an argument that unfairly scapegoats Daniele Amfitheatrof and lets Sam Peckinpah (who I would note despised the score for "Ride The High Country" so consistency I guess should also dictate we commission a new score for that film to please his "vision") off the hook for all the screwups he did in the creative process, because if the film still has any flashes of greatness in it, it's mostly in spite of the script that Peckinpah was responsible for and wouldn't work on. The score was not the problem, and it deserves to be as much a part of a longer cut that fixes some narrative points that were left unresolved by the earlier edit (which in this case means the fault in terms of addressing that point of the story narrative is in the editing, not in the score). The DVD provided that option because like anyone else who thinks this was a film of great potential I *wanted* to see the new scenes that were found from the vault put back in the film in the hopes of fixing some serious narrative problems, but merely because I want to *see* the new scenes does not mean I must ergo also be in favor of throwing out the score in the process just to see the new footage. This is the disconnect that Mr. Redman and his supporters are evidently too thick of skull to realize on this point in their perpetual desire to insist that presenting the original and compromised cut of the film narrative wise is doing a favor to those of us who have serious problems with the idea of a replacement score on general principle (in addition to not accepting the argument that its a superior score).
I guess I just don't see the meta problem here. Film history has been preserved via TT's discrete presentation of the original theatrical cut with intact Amfitheatrof score (isolated no less)...just as it was originally composed and arranged to support that cut.
Which is actually one of the reasons I've decided to make my first experience with Dundee the theatrical version...for context. Otherwise, the extended cut, Caliendo score, and commentary might seem somewhat meaningless.
Listen carefully to the commentary and you will hear the Amfitheatrof score in the background over the *extended* cut. When they recorded this commentary track it was with the original score on the long version and the idea of the replacement score had yet to be conceived. So in effect they are commenting on a version of the movie that you are not allowed to see and judge for yourself.
So you believe the filmmaker only when they agree with your personal view, gotcha.
No, on the particular film we are talking about there, I believe that Peter Hunt is a liar when he says he was denied the opportunity to approve the final version of the LD cut of "1776". As for my "personal views" I've at least maintained a consistent standard, which is more than I can say for you.
I know more than you do about 1776, and we can leave it at that.
How unoriginal. A "nyah-nyah" comment in place of a serious discussion.
I remain for consistency: A version of the film released in a prior home video format should be made available in the newest version to justify the concept of "upgrading" or otherwise there is no point. The best version of "Major Dundee" I have seen is the one that gives me the option to see the extra footage with its original score and I will watch no other version of the film.
I think some of you need to step back from the personal comments towards each other as it serves little purpose in regard to this upcoming BD release.