Transparent Amps and Colored Speakers (1 Viewer)

[Chu Gai]

Foolish question I'll take the second, sell the expensive wire and interconnects and maybe one of the useless components...say the levinson cd player on audiogon and get me my speakers!!! Why I might even sell the rest of the stuff too! Where can I find someone to give me this stuff? But I know where you're coming from and I totally subscribe to weighting my purchases towards the speakers. That's just me though.

 

[Shane Martin]

RobertR,
Neither both would sound like shit.

I'm with Yogi on this.

 

[RobertR]

both would sound like shit.

Are you saying they would sound the same? No difference between them?

 

[Shane Martin]

Are you saying they would sound the same?

Saying both would sound poor. Whomever would buy such a system either way is dumb but I get the point you are trying to make. Whether there is a difference between then I don't know and can't say unless I get to listen to them. I assume you are trying to gauge what "shit" means. There are varying levels of it and how bad it sounds it all subjective anyway. To be honest I have only heard the utopias hooked up to a full blown Krell setup and it was quite nice. Not to my personal liking but still quite nice. I've hard the Wilson Watt 5's and I didn't care for them one bit. Krell amps didn't do much for me either. Much to "digital" sounding. I much prefer a balanced expense rather than 1k in speakers with 10k in electronics or 10k in speakers and 1k in electronics. Only a fool would do that.

 

[RobertR]

Whether there is a difference between then I don't know

You're honestly claiming it's an open question to you whether you could tell a difference between the Bose speakers and the high end speakers (or any other speaker on the Stereophile "A" list) I listed? This is an astonishing claim coming from someone who claims to hear differences between amps, speaker wires, interconnects, etc.

 

[Shane Martin]

This is an astonishing claim coming from someone who claims to hear differences between amps, speaker wires, interconnects, etc

It's not a claim. Its just what I hear. If you want to call it a claim I'll be glad to publish it for you to read when I get a publisher. How's that for outlandish? I'm just here to share my experiences not to "claim" anything. Seriously have a discussion with skeptics is like beating a dead horse. Thank god this forum has an ignore list I'm going to start using it since it makes better since and then go enjoy what I'm hearing instead of all of my posts being scrutinized and beaten down because they are claims to you people. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

 

[RobertR]

they are claims to you people

If you prefer the term "statement" to "claim", that's fine.

 

[David Judah]

Robert, where would you draw the line(as a percentage)for upstream components?

My opinion(or statement or claim )is that with electronics, like most things in life, you have to have balance. I like Yogi's 50/50 suggestion.

DJ

 

[RichardHOS]

Brett, yeah, I think you got the point there in the second one. Though studio monitors can sound awfully nice (I have a pair), and may have very flat FR, they are still far from "neutral" due to their distortion which still dwarfs the amplifier's distortion.

 

[RobertR]

Robert, where would you draw the line(as a percentage)for upstream components?

My opinion(or statement or claim )is that with electronics, like most things in life, you have to have balance. I like Yogi's 50/50 suggestion.

David,

I don't like the suggestion. It seems way too arbitrary to me. If a $2500 amp competently drives my $10,000 (or even $20,000) speakers that sound significantly better to me than anything selling for less, then that's what I'll go with. I look for the amp that does the job.

I feel no need whatsoever to "match" spending. Striving for spending "balance" seems to ignore the whole point, which is getting the best sound for what you spend. I operate on the assumption that spending more on speakers does get you significantly better sound. Note that I am NOT saying that ANY given expensive speaker necessarily sounds better than ANY given less expensive speaker, only that the best speakers cost the most. A $10,000 speaker does things that a $2500 speaker can't. The same is not true of amps.

Where do I draw the line? I'm not sure, but I'd definitely say that practically all of the Krell, Levinson, etc. electronics are WAY overpriced. So are the Wilson speakers.

 

[Chu Gai]

But they're heavy and kinda pretty.

 

[Yogi]

I went to a high end dealer in NY today and listened to their reference system. The system had Mark Levinson front end (source/transport) and a Conrad Johnson ART (dual chassis/dual mono) reference tube preamp connected to Halcro amps playing through Wilson Watt speakers. Boy was the sound sweet and smooth. It was a live preformance, period. No grain or harshness whatsoever at any volume level. This was the most high-end system I have ever heard and I was damn impressed. Now back to my day dreaming.

 

[BruceD]

Robert,

The problem with your Pioneer and high quality speakers scenario is that the Pioneer is likely to go into auto-shutdown mode with a variety of more expensive speakers.

Why? Because the sensitivity and impedance characteristics of some higher end speakers are not necessarily going to be kind to the wimpy Pioneer amplifiers. That is why everyone is telling you to spend more on the amplification side. It doesn't need to be 50/50, but a Pioneer driving high quality speakers is a joke.

 

[RobertR]

Because the sensitivity and impedance characteristics of some higher end speakers are not necessarily going to be kind to the wimpy Pioneer amplifiers.

Bruce,

I'm aware of that. The key word you used is "some". Not ALL high end speakers are going to present a difficult load for the Pioneer. Feel free to use a high end speaker that isn't a "difficult" load, or use a beefier amp. The point is that you don't have to shell out $10,000 plus for your amp to drive $10,000, $20,000, $50,000 speakers. You don't need that kind of "balance".

 

[Chu Gai]

Maybe a Crown or a QSC might prove quite capable. Sounds like you had some fun there Yogi. It's nice when places pull out all the stops with setting the equipment up just right and have a finely tuned room to boot. Salud!

 

[Michael R Price]

Is there any kind of distortion feedback doesn't get rid of?

 

[Brett DiMichele]

I will know what audio nirvana sounds like very soon! As
soon as John Janowitz is done doing the speaker testing
and XO designing and as soon as I get them built.. My Line
Array's will in all likelyhood be the last speakers I ever
own..

I can't wait!

 

[David Judah]

Well of course there's going to be a point of diminishing returns as you go higher up the scale, but for the kind of equipment that most folks are going to own(I mean how many here own $20,000 speakers or even $10,000 ones for that matter), I think the balanced approach is a good one. There will always be exceptions, but I think it's a mistake to throw most everything in the speaker corner. If I had even $6000 speakers, I wouldn't be driving them with my 45TX and Sunfire Cinema Grand amp. The amp might suffice, but I would definitely want to upgrade the pre/pro. Hell, I might even want to spring for Sony's new $3000 SACD player.

It only makes sense that as your speaker quality goes up, so should the components that's driving them. And yes ML and Krell are overpriced, but so are most high-end speakers.

That said, my dream system would be Meridian all the way around from source to active speakers. That'll only set me back about, what? $80,000-$100,000?

DJ

 

[RobertR]

If I had even $6000 speakers, I wouldn't be driving them with my 45TX and Sunfire Cinema Grand amp. The amp might suffice, but I would definitely want to upgrade the pre/pro. Hell, I might even want to spring for Sony's new $3000 SACD player.

I completely disagree. If upgrading the prepro or springing for the $3000 SACD player means forgoing the $6000 or $10,000 speakers I REALLY want (I agree that some high end speakers are overpriced, but the best $10-20k speakers are significantly better than anything cheaper), then I'm going to go with the high end speaker, and I contend this will make a bigger difference than spending thousands more on a SACD player, amp, or prepro.

I don't own $10,000 speakers. They're a mere $9200.

 

[Yogi]

The 50/50 guideline I was talking about was just a guideline and not a rule. I just use it to guide me how to allocate my money. Its nothing that I would stick to. If I found speakers that sounded better to my ears and that broke the 50/50 rule I would go with them (of course if I had the money) and ofcourse the same would apply to components.

Also if all speakers are coloring the sound (except of course for the active monitors) and we dont know which ones are more accurate then the others, speaker choices just boil down to subjective preferences. In that sense investing in expensive speakers is more subjective than investing in expensive amps. Atleast I know the Mark Levinson #33 would be giving me 2400W at 1 ohm that the Pio would never dream of doing. Where as the Wilsons would be giving me a very sweet (aka colored) sound that I like but are just as inaccurate as the other speaker half its price.

So in that sense the objectivists that tout pouring most of the money in speakers are more subjective than the subjectivist since they are basing their purchase on something thats purely subjective, i.e, colored speaker sound. And by the same token the subjectivists that pour half their money (they never say use Bose with Krell) on components are more objective in their decision because they are getting something concrete in return like increased headroom, higher slew rates etc. Now thats a paradox worth thinking about.

I still dont know which boat I am on. So let not the objectivists jump on me.