The new enemy of the HD Formats is Noise Reduction! (1 Viewer)

[Sam Posten]

I have a denon 3806 and a sweet set of Paradigm speakers, and I find the differences between lossy and lossless audio to be trivial.

I'd MUCH rather money be spent on quality extras, packaging and video performance that the VAST majority of consumers will appreciate than the minor bump in audio quality that only a very small subset of enthusiasts will even know about, let alone perceive. But that's just me.

 

[Cees Alons]

Some even seem to perceive a difference that's not there in their system, e.g. between 20-bits and 24-bits sampled audio.
Of course, in "mediocre" systems and less-than-optimal sound rooms, even the difference between 16-bit and 20-bit would be hard to detect.


Cees

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Not if the 20-bit resolution decoding of HDCD is an indication. The smoothness of the midrange is easily discernable over 16-bit standard CD on even mid-fi systems.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Sam,
I have the Denon 4308 matched with Paradigm studio speakers troughout my 7.1 setup and the differences between the lossy and lossless audio is more than trivial to me and I'm not usually that observant in audio differences.




Crawdaddy

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

For myself, I know I'm much less picky about sound quality for movies vs music. There's sooooo much more going on w/ the movie viewing experience afterall plus there really are far fewer real life references for us to detect/hear whether the sound is faithful/realistic or not in most movies. Even if you can easily hear a difference between 2 versions of a soundtrack, there's not always an easy way to tell which one is more faithful to the source. It's really nowhere near the same as the regular music listening experience.


True that. I've actually added noise to photos on occasion to get a certain look. And sometimes, I've also done it selectively because I needed a more consistent look after some editing work. Not sure why anyone would want BG to have a grainy/noisy look though. Are they trying to go for the nostalgia thing back to the original series (or are we actually talking about the original series on HDM)?

_Man_

 

[DaViD Boulet]

The better the sound, the more that the movie-experience is improved in my case. And that doesn't mean I'm focussing on the sound... it just means that the realism and nuance in a good soundtrack (the two things I find lossless really helps with) really make the movie a more powerful experience.

Much like how HD makes actors look more like what they really are (people) and less like "video" which improves the impact of the film, the same is true for audio, which is assisted by the improved timbre from lossless encoding.

 

[Sam Posten]

Crawdaddy, I'm not saying I can't hear the differences, I'm saying they are trivial and not worth throwing a hissy fit over. Is it better to have them? Sure! Is that the format I listen to them on when available? Of course! Would I rebuy a movie if the ONLY difference was a move from lossy to lossless? Not in a million years.

You know, it occurs to me that the people calling for all of these lossy formats completely lost sight of the lesson of the SACD/DVD-A war: Nobody cares but you. And by you I mean the tech heads, not the movie lovers. Nobdy is a bigger geek than me and I can barely get excited about this stuff, you are never in a million years get the general public excited about this, it's already how hard for them to understand i vs p, resolution, 5.1 and the damn black bars? And guess what? iTunes and Netflix are gonna go with DD (not even plus!) 5.1 for their SD and HD rentals and downloads, so its already game over for that format before it even launches. =)

Theres an awful lot of noise about these sound formats and most of it is the zealots PROJECTING their hopes onto an audience that they think exists but doesnt really. It just gets tiring to see it rehashed on every release.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

then what are you complaining about? That some of us care a little more than you do, even though you say you also like to listen to lossless when it's available?

Why not just sit back and be thankful that there are folks pushing the studios to do their very best? Since there's nothing to lose by lossless sound, what's the problem you apparently are so bothered by?

 

[Douglas Monce]

I can't speak for Sam, but for myself it's not your support of lossless audio that is a problem, it's your constant drum beat that is tiresome. You've taken a thread that was about DNR for video and turned it into yet another debate about lossless audio. You are getting to be a one hit wonder, and it seem impossible to have a conversation with out you nudging it on to that subject.

Don't get me wrong David I admire your enthusiasm even if I don't share it, but please, every now and then, can't we talk about something else?

Doug

 

[DaViD Boulet]

My post was one of *many* steering the conversation that way. I usually try to wait until I see several "you can't hear the difference" posts before I jump in. Maybe I'll try bumping that up a few more before I make an appearance to go easy on those of you who already know the drill. However, I admit that the "lossless audio is ok but why bother since extras are more important" tends to be a rationale that gets my fingers typing.

Of course, for those of us who do care about high-quality AV presentations, I can assure you that reading those posts is even more tiresome than reading my coutner-argument.

 

[Robert Crawford]

You wanna bet?

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I've been through it before... anamorphic DVD, then EE... now this. Who knows, maybe the next AV format won't have any problems and there won't be anything left to talk about since nothing could be improved?

 

[Robert Crawford]

Please stop acting like you're the only one that fought for those issues as this forum has been in the middle of those issues from the beginning, even traveling out to LA to talk with the industry people actually preparing the dvd transfers about issues such as anamorphic presentations and EE.

 

[Cees Alons]

Ah, very true!

In 2000, in LA, we visited 4 DVD labs at least (one very interesting visit was to Sony's, leading to a rather heated discussion about anamorphic, colour issues and audio tracks; I remember Robert George taking part, and in those days those people working there were real enthusiasts as well). We also visited several audio recording studios.
Too bad for me I couldn't attend the next one(s)!

Yes, this forum has a long history striving for quality. That's how we know what we're talking about.


Cees

 

[RickER]

You guys crack me up. Keep fighting the good fight men! Whatever that may be?

 

[DaViD Boulet]

RC and Cees, I never suggested that I was the only one pushing for quality or that HTF hasn't taken a significant role in that regard. No problem.



Can you share any of the details about thse "heated discussions"? I'd be curious to know what was said... both from the studio and you guys. I'm sure lots of folks would be keen to hear the details.

 

[Gary Murrell]

lossless audio rules, what is there to discuss and I do agree it should be standard bottom line, Sony is a fine example in this regard

don't get down David, those who are not totally off the wall obsessed with A/V quality don't understand our enthusiasm most of the time, some like us and some hate us, I know that all too much, especially the later

-Gary

 

[Sam Posten]

Doug Monce pretty much nailed it, the feature zealots and format fanboys have finally worn me down. What _I_ care about is having high quality releases of interesting films with good quality extras. Anything beyond that is gravy, and arguing over the nit picky little crap and boycotting releases because they dont have one's personal 'pet' feature ignore the realities of HD media: It's a niche of a niche right now, and if the enthusiasts cut their nose off to spite their faces it will ever remain one. Each of the people who has such a pet feature acts incrudulous that HTF wont band together with them to champion it to the exclusion of every other feature and it always devolves into discussions that have nothing to say about what is actually there.

Am I willing to sacrifice trivial features like lossless and overindulgant web enabled and interactive doo dads to get a unified HD format in the hands of millions? Absolutely. And I find it especially irritating that every possible release comes down to petty arguments about whats wrong with the stuff that doesnt really matter and ignores how GOOD the quality of what is there, actually is (or isnt).

 

[andrew markworthy]

Have just picked up on this thread - hadn't realised that anyone else was concerned about this issue. I thought I was a lone voice! I'm fed up of hearing folks beefing about 'this is great disc, apart from the grain'. When they go to the movie theater, do they watch with their eyes closed? Grain is a part of most films - live with it.

 

[John Dirk]

I agree. Not that I have anything against those of you who are "purists," but there is a point where it becomes largely academic.

Andrew makes an excellent point about commercial theaters. If you take a close look, you might notice that the overall quality in their offerings isn't usually all that great. What I want is a single HDM standard that I can safely invest in. Until then, I'm sticking with good old DVD.

John