The influence of China on Hollywood filmmaking (1 Viewer)

[Citizen87645]

I'm not sure how many here follow Comic Book Girl 19 on YouTube, but I really enjoy and appreciate her opinions on media and entertainment, though I may not always agree with them.

Recently she posted a video about World of Warcraft and made an off-hand comment about how audiences in China are "unsophisticated" and thus the reason for the movie's popularity there vs. here (I didn't see the video before it got taken down, but learned what had happened second hand via comments).

Not surprisingly, her calling Chinese audiences unsophisticated made some people angry, and the video got taken down to be eventually replaced by the one below (which you'll notice has comments disabled), which further elaborates (but doesn't apologize) on the perspective.

[Just a warning, she likes to use the F-word a lot.]



I'm posting this here because I'd like to discuss this topic and this is the best place on the Internet to do it.

If I had seen the original video that bothered some people, I would not have thought twice about her choice of words. I've seen a lot of Chinese (i.e. Hong Kong) movies and I love them -- when they're good. But there's a lot of crap from there, and I think more so recently as Mainland China has been influencing more of the output from Hong Kong. This seems to be the general consensus by those I've talked to, either from Asia or who follow Chinese moviemaking.

Now the thing that had not occurred to me really, was the notion that Chinese audience are not media savvy (CBG19's new choice of words) because of decades of censorship. I'm not entirely convinced on that point. I think there's a cultural aspect as well around how stories are told and what one expects to get out of a movie (e.g. wanting to be entertained vs. art/making you think), as I've noticed this difference long before China became a global influence on what kinds of movies are being made. I think it's ultimately that cultural piece that is missing from her argument and I'd be curious to know what her exposure has been to Hong Kong cinema before China took over.

In any case, those are my initial thoughts, but hope to have more discussion

 

[TravisR]

I don't think that Chinese audiences are any more or less sophisticated than U.S. or any other audience but when international audiences go to see a Hollywood action movie, they expect to get a big spectacle so that means lots of explosions, car chases and fights over thoughtful moments and heartfelt drama.

 

[Citizen87645]

It gets problematic when speaking about mass generalities, I know. What is said about the Chinese audience can just as well be said about the American, but then they do outnumber us 4:1.

But speaking in the unavoidable generalities, I think the Chinese audience -- as a mass -- is "unsophisticated" in terms of what it wants out of movies. They are not looking for "sophistication" from their movies, but entertainment, both with their domestic films and imports. One reason I've been given is because life is so stressful that people just want to escape and not have to think, which is fair. While sophistication and entertainment aren't mutually exclusive, they are certainly challenging to have co-exist, and its simpler to make a film one than the other.

In some ways, I see the Chinese / Hong Kong film industry as the Hollywood one to an extreme, where every movie must be a tent pole blockbuster. If independent film is a struggle here, I can't imagine what it's like over there, if it even exists (or is given a chance to).

 

[TravisR]

But speaking in the unavoidable generalities, I think the Chinese audience -- as a mass -- is "unsophisticated" in terms of what it wants out of movies. They are not looking for "sophistication" from their movies, but entertainment, both with their domestic films and imports. One reason I've been given is because life is so stressful that people just want to escape and not have to think, which is fair. While sophistication and entertainment aren't mutually exclusive, they are certainly challenging to have co-exist, and its simpler to make a film one than the other.

That's a good point too- the differences in each country's culture are big. I've seen foreign movies that might as well have been made on Mars for all that I can relate to them but that doesn't make one superior to the other, it just means things are different.

 

[Tony Bensley]

Having watched the entire segment, it is my opinion that Comic Book Girl 19 makes some valid points regarding why we are currently seeing so many subpar reboots!

Our best hope, in terms of quality, is that Chinese/Russian audiences, who currently represent a larger world market share of North American Movie viewership than ever before, tire of these sooner, rather than later, but I get the feeling we may be in for a very long wait! This is just my opinion.

CHEERS!

 

[KevinGress]

(Having not watched the video), I guess I could buy the 'unsophisticated' argument based on censorship. I mean, is their cinema as 'mature' as ours?

What I mean is this - look back at American television. In the early 50s shows weren't 'sophisticated'; comedies were 'formulaic (back when they were developing the formula); Westerns were straight tales of 'white hats' vs. 'black hats. As time went on, and people became used to what they were seeing, they demanded more. More complexities; more nuances.

I'd say the same happened with cinema. American audiences have 'seen it all'; they want more complex villians, more intricate plots, not just big explosions or cool looking CGI characters - we've been seeing that for years.

So, if that's what she means, not knowing much about Chinese culture or the history of their cinema, I could buy her reasoning. So, it has nothing to do with their intelligence, simply their exposure. They'll quickly catch up and demand more complexities - and then the American audience should benefit because who knows where cinema will go because of their influence, and the new experiences should be entertaining!

 

[Citizen87645]

That was basically her point, obscured by a somewhat non-ideal choice of words.

It's not that there hasn't been some amazing cinema coming out of Communist China -- the late '80s and early '90s films by Zhang Yimou in particular, in large part because it challenged the government censors. But because his films were censored, I'm not sure if most Chinese have even seen those movies. If they had, and if his films were to be unanimously held up as the standard, CBG19's "unsophisticated" descriptor would certainly be laughable, if not ill informed.

Even the films coming out of Hong Kong, which at its peak was churning out stuff that was certainly all about entertainment, have degraded quite a bit since China took over. Most people who follow Asian cinema have now learned to have low expectations regarding anything that's a joint Mainland - Hong Kong venture, which most films are these days. They are often the perfect example of style over substance. Back in the day, the plots were thin and budgets thinner, but they still managed to make a decently entertaining film. Now it's just a lot of empty CGI spectacle with ridiculous levels of wire work kung fu.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Well, at the bottom of her argument is this idea that if you don't like all this big dumb cinema blame China or Russia or the "less sophisticated" world market...and perhaps there is some of that at play specifically due to the buying power of those countries but I don't think the audiences in those countries are to blame for so much bad cinema.

Hollywood turned more to formula cookie cutter assembly line cinema after the explosion of artistic expression in cinema in the 1970s...truly the last great decade of American film. Once we hit the 1980s Hollywood was sequel crazy churning out multiple Halloween, Friday the 13th, Police Academy, and of course sequels to anything and everything that made them a buck. This was really the moment the bean counters took over and they discovered it was far easier to make the same movie again and again and put a Roman numeral next to the title and people would pay to see it.

This is why we had a rise of independent filmmaking in the United States...because Hollywood had lost interest in original or thoughtful films and just grew more and more greedy and "blockbuster franchise" obsessed. The Coens, David Lynch, Jim Jarmusch, Gus Van Sant, John Sayles, Spike Lee...these guys all were avoiding having to make "Hollywood" films and there proved to be a small but very loyal audience that wanted to see more interesting and original films out there. I don't know much about what is going on or has gone on in Chinese Cinema but my guess would be as in all countries there is an audience for more thoughtful and original films and there are filmmakers from these countries that both want to and have made films like this...it is just as you say, Cameron, these films may have been censored or less seen.

Hollywood now has reached the point where they are totally terrified of original works and look at them with sheer disgust. They now focus all of their money and attention on comic book films, sequels, remakes, and reboots. That's not because China is buying...it is because they feel there is far less risk giving people something they bought before than giving them something original.

I would say there are "cultural differences" and it is true that the big blockbuster films...which were already primarily idiotic anyway...are being made so that dialogue, story, and characters are less important which makes them easier to sell to audiences that do not speak English because that way the nuance of a line of dialogue can't get lost in translation.

Let's face it though it is not the fault of the Chinese that Hollywood wants to make money and that the easiest way to get a picture made is to have a title that ends in man...

Batman, Superman, Ironman, Spiderman...it is all Barton Fink...Wallace Beery, wrestling picture. What do you need a road map? These films are all the same damn film all they do is put the guy in a different costume while they blow shit up.

How do you blame the Chinese for that?

 

[Wayne_j]

I think she was putting the blame on the Chinese because there have been several dumb films that bombed in the US but sequels are still being made because they made all their money back from China.

 

[Citizen87645]

There was an interesting AP article yesterday about the Hollywood "whitewashing" of Asian roles, from the perspective of Asian (as opposed to Asian American) actors.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...AOL-?SITE=NCWIN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Gong Li, a frequent collaborator with director Zhang Yimou, had this kind of scathing assessment.

Gong Li, the star of Chinese auteur Zhang Yimou's films, such as "Raise the Red Lantern," characterized the dilemma as a "problem of marketability."

"Asian culture has not meshed well with U.S. film culture. It's not integrated. There are a lot of American A-listers who are making movies in China right now, who have not done well. So it's the same whether you cast a famous actor or not not-so famous one. Chinese people don't know who they are," she said as she walked the red carpet recently at Cannes.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Casting choices are also driven by market performance. The truth is they don't care who is in the film as long as that person has a track record of appearing in profitable films or fits the profile of the type of actor that filled a role in a film that was profitable.

They are not attempting to "whitewash" anything they are attempting to create profit on investment.

I would say that just like "Hollywood" is not suddenly going to start making mainly intelligent thoughtful films for adults...because that is not the type of film that turns the biggest profit...they are also not going to cast "race appropriate" actors if those actors do not show evidence of being profitable for them.

Stars draw a crowd. People pay to see stars...not good actors.

 

[B-ROLL]

Casting choices are also driven by market performance. The truth is they don't care who is in the film as long as that person has a track record of appearing in profitable films or fits the profile of the type of actor that filled a role in a film that was profitable.

They are not attempting to "whitewash" anything they are attempting to create profit on investment.

I would say that just like "Hollywood" is not suddenly going to start making mainly intelligent thoughtful films for adults...because that is not the type of film that turns the biggest profit...they are also not going to cast "race appropriate" actors if those actors do not show evidence of being profitable for them.

Stars draw a crowd. People pay to see stars...not good actors.

This has been the case since the days of Florence Lawrence !

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I don't have a problem with Chinese audiences embracing movies that weren't well-received here.

My problem with the Chinese impact on cinema is that it's having an effect on the content of movies for everybody. The studios avoid criticism of the Chinese government, and increasingly avoid subject matter and themes that they know won't be well-received by Chinese censors. It's getting harder and harder to make a big budget movie that the Chinese government won't approve of.