Survivor - Heroes vs. Villians (season 20) official discussion thread (1 Viewer)

[Patrick Sun]

BTW, the reunion show never fails to make me LOL throughout the hour.

 

[mattCR]

I admit, I tend to think Russell is right that they should do a season where the home voter has a say in the outcome, it would change the gameplay.


But, I'm OK with the winner. Unlike the previous season, I think she played an effective game that involved strategy and great moves at the right time.

 

[mike caronia]

Parvati was robbed.

And I was rooting for Russell.

Parv was a target from day one, and won Immunity when she needed to, and had Russ in her pocket all the way to the end.

If Russell would been with Sandra and Jerri, Jerri MIGHT have won the million over Sandra.


Glad to see the maniac get America's vote at least.

Without him, there would be a lot less entertainment.

Think of all under the radar players out there...no thanks!

 

[Patrick Sun]

It was a mistake to leave Parvati in the game, but it just meant a somewhat closer vote in the end, but either way Russell gets to stew in his "bull in china shop" mentality until the next all-star edition featuring Rob vs. Russell. Now that the players know how Russell play, they will be gunning for him in future all-star editions. Russell was fortunate in this season that no one (except for perhaps Parvati) knew how he played the game.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Originally Posted by mattCR

I admit, I tend to think Russell is right that they should do a season where the home voter has a say in the outcome, it would change the gameplay.

I dunno. We see such a small part of the overall experience. I wouldn't feel qualified to cast a vote. Or, at least AS qualified by way of knowing how contestants played, as one of the other players would know.

It's not like American Idol (which I've never seen...but I assume the votes are based on individual performances).

 

[Patrick Sun]

Originally Posted by Mike Frezon


It's not like American Idol (which I've never seen...but I assume the votes are based on individual performances).

Uh, no. Votes come from galvanized blocs of fan bases for the contestants, and if they have a large fanbase (who dig their vibe, their looks, etc), but can't sing a lick, they can still last for quite a few weeks, perplexingly so.


Russell's "let America vote" idea is idiotic because he still doesn't "get it" when it comes to the game. Plus, he was very lucky some things broke his way, he wasn't always calling the shots, Parv schooled him here and there as well.

 

[mattCR]

I think he should be happy with where he sits; in the end, the way it is setup, where $100,000 is given to the winner of the at home vote is maybe the best competition. He can always proclaim the home viewer, who isn't tainted by jealousy of the chance to win who can evaluate outside of the emotions of the players awarded him the win twice. So, he can count on that.


This season, I thought Parv deserved to win *shrug* but I'm OK with the outcome. Meanwhile, in Samoa, that outcome absolutely baffled me.

 

[Chris Lockwood]

Originally Posted by mattCR


But, I'm OK with the winner. Unlike the previous season, I think she played an effective game that involved strategy and great moves at the right time.

What show were you watching?


What strategy- doing nothing and being an asshole?

 

[mattCR]

Chris-


No, I think she had the perfect strategy. Rather then be seen as riding coattails, she took every chance she could to seem as though she was willing to "befriend" anyone, especially the heroes. Her whole game was to be seen as not a threat, and someone everyone thought was a "good guy". She was the villain who played the game pretending to be a hero . It was actually pretty creative, I thought.

I was OK with any of the three this season. Last season, I truly felt as though Russell was outright robbed in one of those moments that was just a matter of the fellow contestants being bitter. I felt all around in Season 19 that he dominated the game with his play of idols, upsetting the way the game is played, and turning others against each other.


Here, on the strategy level, he and Parv pretty well played to a draw; they had a bitter back and forth and both of them had moments where they schooled the other, and a few where they looked like fools. But Sandra's great strategy was last week, when she and Parv managed to make such bitter enemies from people that she could draw out votes.. and play the HII in order to change the game and get Rupert off. That was a great bit of gameplay.


I too would love to see Russell win, but the way he plays the game pretty much guarantees that will never happen. But I think he has permanently changed the way future players will play the game, especially with relation to idols and headgames. Just like I think Richard Hatch changed the game and really turned it into what it is.. remember, in the very first season, many thought this was going to be a game where people would be judged almost solely on their ability to win the challenges. And Hatch changed all that by using alliances, strategy and cunning to manipulate the game, and in the aftermath people were cursing him, etc. etc. but it was brilliant and that is now how everyone plays the game.

I think the way Russell played the game will impact almost all future players of the game.


That having been said, unlike Parv or Sandra, I don't think he can go back and ever play the game again. Which doesn't matter. It was fun for what we got

 

[Paul D G]

I thought the two seasons were filmed back to back, with, I would guess, only a couple of weeks in between... And that it had already been filmed by last season's finale. Yet Russel commented that he knew he lost last season during a confessional. I'm baffled by that.


If that's the case, it looks like he knew he didn't have a chance with this season which made him so desperate last season.


I was disappointed the Confrontations had virtually no squirm factor. I was looking forward to everyone attacking Russell.


Also, something I've been meaning to mention - Russell buried Boston Rob's hat, but he was wearing it when he got voted out. I was hoping to hear what happened with that but... nothing.

 

anybody know if they pay people to play the game? like give each of the initial 20 players say 10k$ or 50k$ or w/e would be considered a fair price... also do they secretly give them food or water, well the food part might not be as important but i cannot believe and never have believed in any of the seasons when people say oh it's been hard 3-4-5 days without water, such a lie in the conditions and locations of survivor with those kinds of temperatures and humidity all of them would dehydrate in the first day



my next comment will be about the game itself mostly focusing on russel and how he played the game. i respect his game 100% people do not go in this game to make friends or relationships (if people do however this is a bonus), they go in it to win 1 mil $ and i for the life of me i cannot understand why they hold it against russel when they get lied to? this game is about lying and deceiving and seeing others say they play with 'integrity and honor' makes me sick... who would put the 'friendship' they make with someone in 1 to 40 days above 1 million $ is either financially secure and does not need the money or stupid. what really pisses me off tho is looking at people that pretend to be loyal players with integrity they do not lie or fool people so on and so forth... AND OTHER PEOPLE ACTUALLY BELIEVING THEM (i am talking about people who are inside the game). another thing that's really dumb is u lying and breaking alliances and deceiving and then going hard after somebody else who did the same thing?

i mean wow... maybe its just the view i have of this game since i obviously never played it but if i did however play it i would respect the outwit outplay outlast part, not the riding coattails or flying under the radar or whatever else people use to weasel themselves to the final


people who do not vote for russel out of spite because he played a better game than they did? do not sign to play the game then because that is what this is all about and furthermore people already knew how russel played before and he did the same thing now and after all that they are going to hold it against him? come on...


i do think 90% of the people that get in the game are nice people but i only base my opinions on how i see them play the game and anybody who outwits outplays and outlasts to get to the final gets my respect while others do not

 

nvm

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Second season in a row my Tivo only recorded

the second half of the show. Don't get why it

does that. However, seems like I got the best

of last night's two hours: the one hour reunion show.


A few things I want to comment on....


First, I agree with those that place Russell as

the most notable Survivor player. Like him or not,

he has changed the way the game gets played. He

is the one person that has really made the game
more entertaining. And, you have to give the man

an extreme amount of credit for being so devious

yet making it to the final three. For all its worth, I am

happy that he won the Sprint award.


We can talk about how the jury needs to put all

personal feelings aside and recognize someone

like Russell for the way he played the game.
However, in real life, that does not happen. When

you burn bridges and make enemies you lose

support. The magic of this game is that you need

to walk the line between being fiercely competitive

and socially redeeming.


Have America take a part in voting each week?

Sorry, Russell, you really don't get it. Having your

peers make the final vote is a major factor of this

game and I think Russell's biggest flaw was the

inability to win the game on a social level.


That being said, I will deeply miss Russell.

Am I happy Sandra won? No. If you are not

going to vote for Russell because he was a
total asshole, then Parvati certainly deserved

the recognition above Sandra.

When this "all-star" season was announced I
think I was as much against it as Jeff Probst
was. Then again, I didn't know 3/4 of the people

involved in it as I have only been watching the
show for the past three seasons.


However, by far, this was the best season

I have watched to date. I wish we could go

through another season of watching these

players, though with all flaws laid out on the table,

it certainly could never be as exciting.


This is a terrific show, though I still remain

highly skeptical about the editing (and possible

scripting) that is being done to fool the home

viewer. Obviously these players are contracted

never to talk about what really goes on behind

the scenes. In the end, however, I suppose none

of it matters. The producers have created a show

that is highly entertaining week after week.


I'm hooked. See you in the Nicaragua thread this Fall.

 

[Hanson]

Originally Posted by Mike Frezon

I'm not getting how Russell knew he lost Samoa. He said so during his hilltop confessional.

He didn't. The likeliest explanation is that the producers, in order to maintain the unneccesary illusion that the seasons are taped somewhat contemporaneously (when in fact HvV wrapped up in Sept-Oct), had Russell tape two versions of his hilltop speech -- one where he acknowledged that he won, and the other acknowledging that he had lost. Note that he didn't get into any specifics such as vote counts or whom he lost to.


So now we know why he was so upset at losing Samoa -- it was pretty much a given that he lost HvV, so Samoa was his only shot at a million dollars.


ETA: Ron, I am glad to see that even though you are a neophyte to the show, you show a much clearer understanding of how it works than some of the old timers.

 

[Hugh Jackes]

Best line of the final TC goes to Parvati. Paraphrasing, she befriended the dragon (a blatant nod to Coach, though I forget if she got his vote) and made him her pet (the disgusted look on Russell's face was priceless.

 

[MarkMel]

Earlier in this thread I said that although this season is one of the best ever, I missed the survival aspect of the show, the fishing and hunting for food and difficulties therein.


When Jeff asked Colby why he didn't seem into this season, he said the part of the experience he enjoyed most was the exploring, diving and scrounging for food.


He then said they weren't allowed to do that this season, that they couldn't go into the water or go exploring and that they were tightly quarantined.


Does anyone know why they were kept to a small area? Or why they weren't allowed to go into the water?

 

[Steve_Tk]

I enjoy watching Russell play, but he is completely delusional when it comes to understanding how to win Survivor. It's like he is playing his own game and says "See I'm the best at THAT game, just not this one".

 

[Hanson]

Off the bat -- there was no way Russell was going to win, and furthermore, there was no way he deserved to win. It wasn't just that his social game wasn't good (and please disabuse yourself of the notion that strategy and challenge skills are more important that social game -- the entire construct of The Jury makes the social game to most important part of Survivor in the second half of the game). It wasn't that his social game was merely bad. When it came to Russell, he appeared to go out of his way to make everyone hate him, lose respect for him, and lose any hope for a jury vote. Was he a mover and shaker? Without a doubt. Was he entertaining? Oh hell yeah. Was he a good player? To make a football analogy, Russell is like a 15 sack defensive end who doesn't have any ability to defend against the run. He is the Simeon Rice of Survivor -- he does one thing well, but he's not a complete player and does not deserve to win. To extend this analogy further, he was still going after the QB when the other team was handing off the ball to bleed the clock. When it came time for him to curry jury votes, he was going out of his way to piss them off. While he was too proud to answer Jeff's question about the social game directly, I think his statement that he "played one game" was his way of saying he didn't change because he had no feedback on how he played the first time. So even though he won't admit it, I think he knows that he failed in the game by playing for the finals instead of playing to win. It puzzles me that so many people love Russell because Russell was an unmitigated asshole out there, and I personally think it's wrong to reward someone for being an asshole to achieve their goals. And make no mistake, Russell was an asshole, and his prime tactic was to act like an abusive husband to a bunch of battered wives. So in the end, I'm glad that he got zero votes from the jury, but I'm a bit concerned for emotional state of survivor fans that they awarded him $100,000 for playing like this. Sitting in the comfort of my home and watching only what the editors gave me, I would have voted for Parvati in a heartbeat. But it seems that she didn't do enough from the Jury's perspective to distinguish herself from Russell, and more than one jury member thought that, for all of her challenge prowess, she essentially rode Russell's coattails. In retrospect, her social game, while not a bad as Russell's, did nothing to curry votes in the finals. Like Russell, she assumed that the jury would be so impressed by what she accomplished that they would hand her the million dollars. But even though she made one of the biggest moves in the game (giving away the HII to Sandra and Jerri to knock out JT), she could not shake the label of "Russell's Lackey". Which brings up to Sandra. Now, it is a commonly mistaken belief that under the radar players are less deserving of the million dollars than their more active counterparts. I will grant you that they are less entertaining (although I would argue that Sandra is the most entertaining UTR player and more entertaining that many OTT players), but they are no less deserving that a Russell Hantz or Pavarti Swallow. If you don't think Sandra did anything to keep herself in the game, you are wrong. She helped get Coach voted off, preserving Courtney for another week and creating a buffer for the next week, and then she was able to convince Russell to keep her instead of Courtney. The she was able to stay in the villain alliance even though she openly tried to get Russell voted off. I still cannot believe she pulled that off -- Russell engineered vote offs for far less transgressions. Then she tried to vote him off again and he still kept her. She was the only one to not buckle under when Russell was berating her. "Are you with me or against me?" "I'm against you, Russell." And she found the final HII that forced Russell to stick to the plan and denied him the chance of making any more big moves. While you may say, "finding it was luck", what she didn't do was run back to Russell and tell him she had it. And unlike Parvati's secret HII, it was one that Russell (and everyone else) knew about. For her not to tell him about it was ballsy. For her to not even have to use it as a threat was a testament to how well she played her game -- she was always on the right side of the votes. But Sandra's tour de force was her jury performance. Her appeal to the Heroes, telling them that she wanted Russell out so badly and how she tried in vain to do so, is what ultimately absolved her of the Russell Stain. That appeal got her the million bucks. And deservedly so, I say. Because of all the UTR winners in Survivor history, Sandra was easily the most entertaining, and when I think about why I dislike winners like Vecepia and Natalie White, it's because they were boring and not necessarily because they were UTR. I think if Jerri had beaten Parvati I would have been quite disappointed, because Jerri rode Russell's coattails to the fullest. But Sandra rode nobody's coattails and that's why she's the queen.

 

[Greg.K]

I agree Parvati was the best player hands down this season - socially, strategically and physically. Russell was strategic early in the game but at the end he was just a bully. That doesn't win over the jury, Russell. Never will.


I would like to see him in a future edition of Survivor - just to see if he can adapt his strategy. If he doesn't or can't I don't see him lasting long at all next time.


Sandra coasted and went under the radar most of the time. She survived mostly because there was always somebody more important to get rid of. If the merge had been one week later, she'd have been gone. However at the end when it came time to win over the jury, Sandra had the sympathy of the Heroes on her side because they knew she'd been trying to oust Russell - which just goes to how hated he was. I think Hanson's analysis is spot-on here.


BTW, it would have been awesome if JT had managed to throw that letter into the fire.

 

[Patrick Sun]

Originally Posted by Hanson Yoo



I don't really mind Sandra's "Anyone but me" strategy or the "Who do you want gone?" strategy in ousting other players, as it lessens the culpability that the ousted jury members feel when they are deliberating on their votes.


Sandra's hilariously entertaining with her comments on the situations. She actually read all the angles well, without the self-delusional rose-color glasses that Russell viewed his position in the game. She turned Russell's aggressiveness and abrasiveness against him. Sun Tzu would have been very proud. Russell still didn't understand Sandra's "Get Russell" strategy at tribal council when he was so proud he made it to the final tribal council when it gave Sandra the best chance to win against him, and whoever else made the top 3. Russell became her foil to play against in the jury's minds. Had the Heroes taken up Sandra's offer to flip-flop, she still curried favor, but probably would not have made it to the final 3. So, some of stupidity of the Heroes is responsible for Sandra having to shift gears and keep out of the line of fire for the rest of the game. I still can't believe Sandra talked her way out of being sent home at final 4, when Jerri somehow fell out of Russell's favor.