surround ex sound? (1 Viewer)

[Tom D]

Hello, I am considering upgrading my 3300 to a 3802. Is there much improvement in sound quality by adding a center rear channel. I already use adp 350's and mini monitors for the rear surrounds? Thanks for the comments.

 

[Jimmy P]

Some people will not like this comment.

The potential of surround ex can be great,but the media for

home use is somewhat limited at this time as is the hardware

I think surround ex is trying to mimic Sony's SDDS which is

patented,and nobody has tried to license or produce it for

home use.

Yamaha i think has done the best job of 6.1/7.1,they added

front effects speakers for the mains,and have a phantom

rear center configuration.Their setup sounds pretty good.

Take your choice.

 

[Wes]

Make the jump you will love the EX/ES decoding. All 5.1 decodes great with EX effects. So sofeware is not limited at all. Some of the best EX decoding software is not labled as being EX encoded.

Wes

 

[derek]

See my faq for further information on Surround EX.

 

[Larry Chanin]

I totally agree. Even though I have several Surround EX DVDs, the most dramatic use of the back channel that I have experienced to date is with Saving Private Ryan which isn't a Surround EX encoded movie. I have found that any movie with aggressive use of the side surround channels will provide excellent surround back effects.
There are also a number of movies that have been encoded in Surround EX, but the DVD packaging fails to label them as such.
Larry

 

[Mark F Hall]

Originally posted by Wes:

Make the jump you will love the EX/ES decoding. All 5.1 decodes great with EX effects. So sofeware is not limited at all. Some of the best EX decoding software is not labled as being EX encoded.

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I totally agree there are many great sounding DD movies that sound great in ex.

- Saving Private Ryan

- X-Men

- The Mummy

- The Matrix

- The Prince of Egypt

- Mask Of Zorro

- Starship Troopers

- Dragonheart

- Any Given Sunday

- Air Force One

- The Corrupter

- Godzilla

- Contact

- The Fifth Element

- A Bug’s Life

And many more.......

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Don't forget Pitch Black, which is not labelled as such. I use the crash sequence at the beginning as a demo!

As well as the "dog growl" in the Monsters, Inc teaser on Toy Story 2.

My personal opinion, is that a lot of current 6.1 implementations are not the best yet.

Simple DPL decoding of the rears to generate a rear center channel can actually collapse the sound field back there if too much common mono info is included between the L + R rears.

Ideally, whether it's in a receiver, pre/pro, or DIY "homebrew" set up, a choice should be given between straight DPL decoding (which is usually best for genuine (THX) Surround EX/DTS-ES releases), and a "3 channel stereo" mode for the rears which is usually the best for "std" DD/DTS discs.

 

[MattGuyOR]

I always prefer DTS to DD, do the receivers pull sound to the rear center like the DD versions do? (i.e. Saving Private Ryan DTS, or Prince of Egypt DTS)

 

[Wes]

DTS and DD 5.1 will both decode the EX/ES the same weather it was encoded EX/ES or not!

Wes

 

[Adam Barratt]

Dolby Digital Surround EX trying to mimic SDDS? SDDS doesn't have any more surround channels than standard Dolby Digital or DTS; just more up front (sometimes).

Adam

 

[Jimmy P]

Adam,

You are correct "mimic " is not really the right word.

Surround ex does try to enhance the ambience of film sound, but offers minimal enhancement to the current 5.1 home system.

Sony SDDS, at this time is the only true 7.1 digital sound system in existence.

SDDS also enhances the ambience of film sound,but i think it does a much better job than surround ex with its ability of filling a room,or in this case a theater with sound.

Thats why i mentioned the Yamaha receivers in my original

post,they do a better job with their version of 7.1 than the recent crop of surround ex receivers.

So until Sony or some manufacturer license's Sony's patent

for SDDS and gets it in the consumers home,i think we as the

consumer are really missing out.

 

[John Morris]

All I can say is that I temporarily downgraded my system by using a receiver as a pre/pro just so I could have 7.1 EX. I am now patiently waiting for the Outlaw 950 pre-pro which will end my upgrade urge for at least a couple of months...

 

[Wes]

I do not see any resemblance to EX being a mimic of SDDS. If you think it does you do not know what SDDS 8 is. SDDS has not just three channels (4 counting the LFE) but 5 channels behind the screen This is to fill in sound gaps on the screen in a big screen auditorium. Smaller screens will use SDDS 6 which is the exact same setup as a DD/DTS 5.1 system but is encoded with Sony's digital encoding/decoding system. Which I might add could also use if the theater chose to a EX decoder to make SDDS EX.

but offers minimal enhancement to the current 5.1

Minimal enhancement? Come on over to my theater and I will let you hear my minimal enhancement! Sure EX is not discrete 6.1 but if you were to hear a properly set up 6.1 you would be sold on it.
DEMO EX scene: In "Planet of the Apes" (I might add is not EX encoded) During the round up just after he crashes to the earth (planet for though who have not seen it yet) the main character is almost ran over by a horse as the horse runs over the camera. In 5.1 (as well as SDDS) the horse gallop will exit the scene into the Surround channels equally. But in EX/ES you will hear the individual hoof steps in the Surround L/R but then fade quickly into the EX/ES as the horse goes farther off behind the camera view. I don't think Yamaha's 7.1 extra front speakers are going to pull that off now are they?
Just my thoughts on that!
Wes

 

[Adam Barratt]

Jimmy, there are actually several 7.1-channel/8-channel systems in existence. DTS offer a large-format audio system called 70mm DTS with the same channel layout as SDDS-8, as used on films such as Armageddon, Pearl Harbor, Independence Day and Dinosaur. Digital Cinema could also contain eight or more channels with ease.

On DVD, both MPEG Multichannel and PCM support up to eight audio channels, although neither have used more than six (yet). In addition, as you say, should SDDS be introduced domestically a third eight-track capable format would exist.

Adam

 

[MatthewJ S]

unless we're talking about dts es discrete, let's call ex what it really is ...matrixed rear center.That being said ,it works very nicely regardless of whose logo is on it...as for sdds,I have heard that the compression codec sucks, so don't get all excited about it's use for home!

 

[DonnyD]

Well, guess I'll jump into these commentaries on ex....

I recently set up a system using an ex compatible system but started without the rear center. The surrounds were the ADP 350 just as you have. I will have to say, those fill the rear of a room very well and knocked our socks off. We were using the Yam 1000 which has a pre-out config for rear ex so we hooked an old amp up and tried out the rear center effect and compared several clips. Even though the ADP 350 were outstanding, the rear ex added somewhat to the effect but not as much as say.... using direct radiators which allow you to almost localize the sound and detect the direction. Now that being said, I was impressed enough to go out and buy a new receiver to add a rear center. I already had the 2095 Yam in a 7.1 config and being a Yam fan, went with the RX-V1 (okokok... I know....but I still love it). I use direct radiators all around and the rear center DID add a great effect and although the 2500 I spent was way too high, I am satisfied with the result. It definitely keeps me looking around to see what the hell hit me!

Now, after all that, we did find that the rear ex didn't make quite as much difference with the ADP 350 setup as it did with my own direct rads but there was justification in adding it to my friends.

If you are like most of us, you won't be able to stand it when watching a movie and thinking are you missing something?????? Go ahead and upgrade and I agree that some of the most dramatic ex clips are from movies that are not even encoded ex.....

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Hello Wes!

DTS and DD 5.1 will both decode the EX/ES the same weather it was encoded EX/ES or not!

Ahhhh, but what will be the *quality* of that decoding?
I.e., there are a lot of older 5.1 soundtracks, that are simply the original Dolby 2 channel stereo soundtrack, DPL processed, and then encoded to the 5.1 channels on the DVD.
The rear L + R channels contain the same monophonic material.
You run the rear L + R channels from a soundtrack like that through DPL, and both channel's info will end up in the center, with nothing left behind in the L + R rears themselves.
I can actually see this: the Shure DPL processor I am using back there, shows me on it's display where the info is being sent. On a genuine DD EX/DTS-ES DVD, I can see unique information present in each of the L + R + C channels. For an "older" soundtrack with the above described characteristics, bingo, I see only information being sent to the rear center channel.
I do agree, that on *some* non-labelled DD EX/DTS-ES, that using DPL process will give you unique rear center information.
But that is definately not always the case.

 

[Wes]

Kevin, You are correct! For instance the Abyss is in 5.1 but is nothing more than DPL placed on a 5.1 encoding. And I am sure there are others of which I have not tested so it all is up to the user to use the EX channel or go with striate 5.1. But out of the 200 discs I have I have only found a couple 5.1 that that did not do well with EX (sound collapsed into the EX channel)

I did notice I did state earlier that ALL 5.1 works and I now realize I should have said most all 5.1 works great with EX.

Wes

 

[Jimmy P]

Wes,

I know what SDDS is.

I have been to countless screenings at Sony studios SDDS theater,and have also toured the facility to check out the hardware,and have also read a number of papers on SDDS sound processing.

I have also stated in a previous post that "mimic" was not

really the correct word to use for what i was describing, which are two different(SDDS,Surround EX)ways to enhance the sound field.

I think the enhancement surround ex gives is minimal,and if you have or had listened to a descent 5.1 setup to begin with,the difference between ex and 5.1 is not that great. Especially when you are touting how great the sound is even with non ex encoded media,played in ex mode,your system or setup must have a problem.As for the Yamaha(top level)receivers,they use dsp to create phantom rear center surround channels,and it does sound good.

 

[Adam Barratt]

the Abyss is in 5.1 but is nothing more than DPL placed on a 5.1 encoding

This is not the case. The Abyss was presented theatrically with six-track mag audio, and in Dolby Digital for its SE re-release.

It is a true 4.1 soundtrack, not simply a Dolby Surround soundtrack simulation presented via discrete channels. This (fully discrete channels) is the case with many DVD soundtracks of films that were presented theatrically with 70mm six or four-track soundtracks.

Even films that were never shown with a discrete soundtrack are usually, or at least whenever possible, re-purposed from the archival source material (stems or whatever is available). Simply dumping a Dolby Surround soundtrack is never (that I'm aware of) done.

Adam