Star Wars: The Last Jedi discussion thread(Warning: Spoilers!) (1 Viewer)

[Colin Jacobson]

I admit that when the recent push for diversity started, I was somewhat confused by it. As a white guy, I looked at it as what's the big deal, I relate to characters that are black or female so why can't they relate to a person of a different race or gender. However, I quickly saw how much that it really means to people to see someone who looks like them onscreen or in a comic book, etc., which, on a human level, is really good. Also, it's great to get some different POVs and it'll bolster fandom in years to come beyond guys that just look like me.

Exactly. I used to work with a woman named Nichelle, and her parents had named her after Nichelle Nichols - not because they loved "Trek" so much but because the concept of a smart, strong black woman in an important role ala Uhura was such a damned big deal in the era.

At times, "diversity" can seem a lot like pandering - I still think the Lost Boys in "Hook" were so self-consciously "diverse" that they became an annoyance - but lots of those "diverse" parts make a big impact on a lot of people.

And why not? Why shouldn't Rey be female? Why shouldn't Finn be black? And on and on...

 

[MielR]

Are you being sarcastic, or do you truly think there's some huge conspiracy perpetrated by Disney and most of the major film critics in the U.S.? Really?

Critics being paid to give good reviews has been going on since the invention of Movable Type.

Do I really think there's a conspiracy? No. But I think it's even less likely that people are writing bad reviews for any other reason than they seriously didn't like the film.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Critics being paid to give good reviews has been going on since the invention of Movable Type.

Do I really think there's a conspiracy? No. But I think it's even less likely that people are writing bad reviews for any other reason than they seriously didn't like the film.

Then Warners need to get their bag men to up the ante to those critics as Justice League at 40% is really bad.

 

[dpippel]

Critics being paid to give good reviews has been going on since the invention of Movable Type.

Do I really think there's a conspiracy? No. But I think it's even less likely that people are writing bad reviews for any other reason than they seriously didn't like the film.

Oh come on. It absolutely stretches credulity to think that so many respected critics were getting payola from Disney to positively review this film. Seriously.

It is MUCH more likely that a vocal group of fans got butt-hurt because their hopes for beloved, established characters were dashed by Johnson's off-centered take on canon in this film. These are usually the same people who swear up and down that they want to see something new and different, but in reality just want something familiar and safe.

 

[WillG]

I wasn't able to stay current on this discussion today, so I'm a few pages behind. Still working on some cogent thoughts, and I don't plan to see the film again for a week or two (lucky enough to have The Darkest Hour plying near me this weekend). So I have a few quick thoughts, gripes and praises and asides alike.

I've been jumping around a bit in this thread, forgive me if some of this has been addressed.

1) Chewie should have eaten those roasted Porgs.

Seriously! I mean he had already cooked them. But then again we don't know for sure he didn't end up eating them off screen. One thing I do like about the porgs is that they frustrated Chewie, and I love frustrated Chewie (much like angry Butters).

2) I know they needed something for Finn and Rose to do, but the casino plot didn't work very effectively at all. Neither did the "worst people in the galaxy" being arms dealers. That sucked me out of film for a few moments. It isn't the fascist worlds destroying armies and navies, but rather the engineers that make the equipment? How much did Snoke's Super Super Stealth Star Destroyer cost? One googilian credits? If I have that money, I don't own the casino, but entire Star systems. Anyways, that element didn't feel Star Wars at all.

Yeah, I really didn't like this. I hate to use the cliche, but I want to escape when I watch Star Wars not be spoon fed bleeding heart, contemporary social commentary (also was it just me or did it seem like they made up Hux this time around to more resemble a certain real life, powerful political leader, not to mention them characterizing him more as a fool). I kind of like how at first Finn was exclaiming how awesome the place was but then one short speech from Rose and he's all "these are all bad guys" (I guess I sort of get why Finn would quickly change his tune as he kind of has a similar background to Rose, but I liked it better when Finn was all excited). It seems a bit clear that they're having trouble finding things for Finn to do. I like the character, and Boyega does a great job, but the problem is that Finn really isn't all that useful of a character. He's not a force wielder, he's not a skilled pilot, he's not a resistance strategist. All he really has is some inside info on First Order tech.

Rose just didn't make it for me. Way too cloying. I couldn't stand her "yipppieeee"-ness while riding that horse/cat/dog thing. And the love conquers all "that's how we're going to win. Not by destroying the things we hate, but by saving the things we love"........uggggggghhhhh! Yeah, not really. Save all the things you love that you want but you're going to have to deal with destroying the First Order to win.

3) Mark Hamill was fantastic. I enjoyed how his character evolved, I enjoyed the lessons he imparted, and of course I enjoyed his scene his Carrie and Driver. I've got a bit more to say here. I've noticed that quite a few of the fans frustrated with this film appear to have had real problems with Luke and Rey's parts of the film.

I didn't love Hamill's drawling speech pattern early in the movie, but he seemed to have dialed it back a bit as the film went on. Otherwise solid performance. I really liked his little wink to Threepio at the end.

4) Did we need to destroy two Super destroyers in a single film? While the Resistance was supposed to be scrappy, they managed to accomplish the impossible twice with absolutely minimal loss of life and extraordinary cost to the First Order. That said, I really enjoyed both scenes.

Here is where I am feeling you were watching a different movie than me. It was made quite clear the very heavy cost to the resistance of destroying the dreadnought in the opening of the film. And it was keeping with the "hubris" theme of the movie.

5) Rey and Ren communicating worked for me. It allowed some engagement between these characters, organic to what came before. It went exactly the way I thought it would, but that is okay. Still good stuff.

I thought those bits were interesting. I kind of like how on one of times the linked, Rey was like "can we not do this now" and Kylo was like "I don't want to either". I really wished the movie ended with them in kind of a shaky alliance that would serve as the cliffhanger into the next movie. I was also thinking that it could have been really cool when Snoke was killed and they fought the lobster guards that somehow Rey and Kylo's sabers got mixed up and Klyo was fighting with Rey/Luke/Anakin's saber and Rey was fighting with Kylo's saber. That would have been some cool foreshadowing had the movie decided to leave any doubt as to the way that Kylo/Rey was going to go.

8) Wasn't expecting Yoda, and was pleasantly surprised by the ESB Yoda personality. So much better than the overly serious bore from the PT films. Had to get used to his appearance a bit, but in the end, it really worked for me.

From what I understand, they went back to using a puppet for Yoda. It looked a little off at first (still miles better than the original TPM puppet though). On my second viewing, he looked fine to me

 

[Robert Crawford]

I'm thinking about going to see this again tomorrow for $5.00 on Thrifty Ticket Tuesday.

 

[MielR]

Oh come on. It absolutely stretches credulity to think that so many respected critics were getting payola from Disney to positively review this film. Seriously.

That's not what I said at all. Knowing how I feel about the film, it's MORE plausible to me that people would write negative reviews about the film based on the fact that they genuinely disliked the film, because I had the exact same experience.

It is MUCH more likely that a vocal group of fans got butt-hurt because their hopes for beloved, established characters were dashed by Johnson's off-centered take on canon in this film. These are usually the same people who swear up and down that they want to see something new and different, but in reality just want something familiar and safe.

OR...they were not entertained by the film. It's possible. If by "familiar and safe" you mean "coherently written and thoughtfully directed" then yes, that's what I wanted and is exactly what the film failed to provide.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Oh come on. It absolutely stretches credulity to think that so many respected critics were getting payola from Disney to positively review this film. Seriously.

It is MUCH more likely that a vocal group of fans got butt-hurt because their hopes for beloved, established characters were dashed by Johnson's off-centered take on canon in this film. These are usually the same people who swear up and down that they want to see something new and different, but in reality just want something familiar and safe.

I don't know that it's an "either/or" scenario. I think it's much more likely that what critics wanted out of the movie and what some elements of the audience wanted out of the movie are two separate things.

My anecdotal experience is that some of the people I've talked to loved it, and some were "meh" on it.

I do think that -- love it or leave it -- it's the Star Wars movie we'll still be talking about the most 10-20 years from now. The Force Awakens was really tasty fast food that hit the spot, but didn't stick with me the way The Last Jedi has.

 

[WillG]

Oh come on. It absolutely stretches credulity to think that so many respected critics were getting payola from Disney to positively review this film. Seriously.

Professional critics, probably not.

Internet critics, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a different story. They let a lot of them see the movie before everyone else, and it wouldn't shock me if there was a very heavily implied understanding that those lucky few will be kind. If I recall IGN gave the movie like a 9.7 out of 10, which in retrospect seems unlikely given the decidedly mixed audience reviews this thing is getting.

 

[Sam Favate]

This was the instructor, right?

Hah! No, this guy's an ex-Marine.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

Hah! No, this guy's an ex-Marine.

Comic Book Guy is an ex-Marine???

 

[Colin Jacobson]

Professional critics, probably not.

Internet critics, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a different story. They let a lot of them see the movie before everyone else, and it wouldn't shock me if there was a very heavily implied understanding that those lucky few will be kind. If I recall IGN gave the movie like a 9.7 out of 10, which in retrospect seems unlikely given the decidedly mixed audience reviews this thing is getting.

As one who has received literally 1000s of free DVDs/Blu-rays over the decades, I think this "one hand washes the other" concept is really overdone. In all that time, I've never had a studio lean on me for positive coverage.

They poke me for coverage period, and as a result, I've watched a whole lotta movies that didn't interest me. Crap, the Paramount rep once goaded me into watching every episodes of "Star Trek: TNG" because I was their "'Trek' guy"!

But no one's ever tried to influence my opinions or given me threats that they'd cut off support if I didn't offer positive reviews.

In another thread, I was just told that I hate everything I see, so if the studios still support the World's Angriest Critic, they can't be leaning too hard on the others!

 

[dpippel]

That's not what I said at all. Knowing how I feel about the film, it's MORE plausible to me that people would write negative reviews about the film based on the fact that they genuinely disliked the film, because I had the exact same experience.

My apologies for misunderstanding you, truly. I see the audience scores on RT for practically any film as being heavily canted towards the negative by default. People are much more likely to voice displeasure on the internet than take the time to provide positive reactions. We see it time and time again. Being snarky and cynical about something popular gets you noticed, and that's what everyone craves these days. This is the basis of what makes Facebook so popular.

OR...they were not entertained by the film. It's possible. If by "familiar and safe" you mean "coherently written and thoughtfully directed" then yes, that's what I wanted and is exactly what the film failed to provide.

That's not what I meant at all. IMO Johnson turned several stale Star Wars tropes on their heads in a good way, i.e, he took the movie in directions that were not "familiar and safe", but work. For me. TLJ is far from perfect, and I have my own gripes with some of the decisions that were made, but on the whole I loved what he did. Abrams was heavily criticized by some fans for basically remaking A New Hope, and now some fans are raking Johnson over the coals for daring to do something different. These directors just can't seem to win in some circles.

 

[dpippel]

Professional critics, probably not.

Internet critics, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a different story. They let a lot of them see the movie before everyone else, and it wouldn't shock me if there was a very heavily implied understanding that those lucky few will be kind. If I recall IGN gave the movie like a 9.7 out of 10, which in retrospect seems unlikely given the decidedly mixed audience reviews this thing is getting.

I was specifically talking about professional critics. I tend to ignore the others.

 

[TonyD]

I loved this movie.
These three new SWs movies are just about my favorite movies I've ever seen in a theater and I've seen all the Star Wars movies at the Movies.

I don't even know what to say to people who don't like this one or any of the new movies.
So much fun. So entertaining. So exciting.

I can't see any real reason to complain about Jedi. I laughed and cried and smiled from ear to ear.

The opening battle was great. The 3D of the camera shot flying through all the ships right up to the Republic ship was perfect.
I had no problem with Leah waking up and gliding back to the ship.
When she was blown out of the bridge I don't think anyone realized what happened, I saw no one reacting to it. I thought it was super clear everyone on the bridge got blown out into space and
that Ren did not pull the trigger.
I noticed during Ren;s version of Luke attacking him, Luke's face was practically demonized.
His eyes were fiery looking and his face was evil.
In Luke's version he was in tears and was unsure and sympathetic.

Maybe my favorite fight in any movie might be the Ren Rey fight in Snokes red room.
I admit they got my AGAIN with Ren, will he turn to the light side. I was convinced again that he turned. BUt I remembered they still need a bad guy so I quickly realized he wasn't turning any time soon. Who's the bad guy if he turns? there's no one else.

When the cruiser went to hyper speed or whatever it's called I turned to my wife and said she's going to hyperspeed right into Snoke's ship. That's all she did as far as I can tell, she didn't fire anything guns off, just a Kamikaze crash right into Snoke.

I didnt notice Luke had no footprints but noticed his facial hair was the same as the flashback to when the Jedi training temple was destroyed so I thought he was already dead and was Force Ghosting but it wasn't that. He was projecting himself with the force.
I've noticed a couple of posts saying they don't know what happened to Luke, why did he dissappear?
It was obvious that he died and his physical body faded away just like Obi's did when he dropped his guard to Vader. Beautiful.

I'm just flabbergasted at the people who don't like this movie. I can't even comrehend it.
It has all the stuff that all the star wars movies have.
It's just plain fun.

Another thing that I want to mention is in regards to the audience reaction that I had at my showing.

When the Lucasfilm title came up the audience cheered and applauded, and it really made me smile. There were a lot of laughs at the key points in the film, but the biggest reaction came when Kylo made his choice between Snoke and Rey. When he killed Snoke and started his fight along side with Rey my audience erupted with cheers and applause that sent shivers down my spine. Unfortunately, the way that the events turned out with Kylo going back to his originals ways I felt disappointed knowing that I will never be able to view that situation in the same way again, and that feels like a major missed opportunity which saddens me. I will never forget that original moment for a long as I live, and really wish that it didn't end up that way. That was the first time I was in an audience that applauded at the end of the movie, but I really wonder what it could have been.

That's not what I said at all. Read my post again.

OR...it was a really bad film. It's possible. If by "familiar and safe" you mean "coherently written and thoughtfully directed" then yes, that's what I wanted and is what the film failed to provide.

It's not a really bad film, that's ludicrous. You certainly can have that opinion but insinuate there's a conspiracy on reviewers who write good reviews. come on.
If you aren't saying that, it sure looks like you are.

Clearly to me, some people just want to be contrary.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Why wouldn't most critics like it?

It does something fresh, new and different with the Star Wars mythology. Most of the fans who are upset about it seem to be upset regarding certain things that fanboys would obsess about, like Rey's parents, Snoke's lack of backstory, etc. The most angry seem to think Luke should have been depicted in another way.

Professional critics, most of whom probably don't spend a lot of time theorizing about stuff like that, would not react with such anger. They just want a good movie.

It makes sense to me why critics would rate this film highly. It also makes sense to me why a certain vocal section of the fandom would not like it. Those things aren't mutually exclusive, both can be true and both can believe themselves to be right. That's exactly why there isn't one right answer, and like all art, responses to films are extremely subjective.

Also, why would Disney even need to bribe or pay critics for good reviews? As the prequels demonstrated, Star Wars is basically review-proof in terms of grosses. And all of those who are upset about The Last Jedi are still going to turn up to watch Episode IX in two years from tomorrow when it holds its opening night screenings. They know it, too.

 

[MielR]

I'm just flabbergasted at the people who don't like this movie. I can't even comrehend it.

Really? Why?

It's not a really bad film, that's ludicrous. You certainly can have that opinion but insinuate there's a conspiracy on reviewers who write good reviews. come on.
If you aren't saying that, it sure looks like you are.

Clearly to me, some people just want to be contrary.

I've clarified/edited my post since you quoted it. You may want to look at it again.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you weren't personally referring to me as "contrary", but
there's obviously a double-standard going on here. If you think the film is bad, you're "ludicrous" and "contrary." I haven't seen any of the people on this board who didn't like the film call any of the people who did like the films names.

Why wouldn't most critics like it?

Lots of reasons. Most have already been expressed. I won't bother to repeat them.

And all of those who are upset about The Last Jedi are still going to turn up to watch Episode IX in two years from tomorrow when it holds its opening night screenings. They know it, too.

Personally, I'm not upset about it, I am just disappointed. And I'm definitely NOT going to see IX as I no longer have any interest in the franchise.

 

[TravisR]

The most angry seem to think Luke should have been depicted in another way.

I initially wanted exactly what Luke pointed out was ridiculous- him taking on the whole First Order. That being said, they made the right choice to go a much more interesting way.


One thing that's great about this movie is that it's inspired actual interesting critical examination. Not just bitching that it sucked or saying that it was awesome but people are writing essays that make me reconsider my thoughts on the movie and that's a rarity for a Star Wars movie.

 

[WillG]

As one who has received literally 1000s of free DVDs/Blu-rays over the decades, I think this "one hand washes the other" concept is really overdone. In all that time, I've never had a studio lean on me for positive coverage.

They poke me for coverage period, and as a result, I've watched a whole lotta movies that didn't interest me. Crap, the Paramount rep once goaded me into watching every episodes of "Star Trek: TNG" because I was their "'Trek' guy"!

But no one's ever tried to influence my opinions or given me threats that they'd cut off support if I didn't offer positive reviews.

In another thread, I was just told that I hate everything I see, so if the studios still support the World's Angriest Critic, they can't be leaning too hard on the others!

I'm a nearly daily visitor to your site and I know you're objective. But you're not really who I'm taking about here (I assume you didn't get to see TLJ almost a week before the official opening). In a way I kind of picture all the internet critics (again not people like you who objectively review DVDs/BD) as Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons (ie very cynical and opinionated). Maybe that's my own prejudice but I feel the internet is very cynical and opinionated. Which is why I kind of think that Disney wouldn't invite these kinds of people to see this movie in advance, (a movie that in retrospect has polarized audiences) people who could affect the box office (and with all due respect, home video is aftermarket) without some assurance that these people won't fuck them with an awful review before the general release.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I initially wanted exactly what Luke pointed was ridiculous- him taking on the whole First Order.

It was Abrams, with Kasdan, who started us down this path even before Johnson came in. Luke had to be angry and depressed in this film. If he wasn't, he never would have disappeared in the first place, and the entire first movie would not have happened the way it did because he would have been an integral part of it from the beginning. It made total sense to me that Luke would be reluctant to go with Rey, especially since he had hidden himself extremely well and very clearly didn't want to be found. Johnson was simply picking up where Abrams had left off and taking the story to its next logical point.

But, with the end, he kinda did take on the whole First Order, or at least, Kylo and his men, and they basically are the entire First Order at this point, no? But Yoda had to kick his butt first to get him to take action.

And I'm definitely NOT going to see IX as I no longer have any interest in the franchise.

Really? That would be your right, of course, but I wonder if you will feel the same once you start seeing trailers, posters and such for it in a year and a half or so. Star Wars can be a hard habit to break. And I think if you do skip it, you'll be in the minority. Which is also fine, but I doubt Disney has much to worry about overall.

It's like all the Harry Potter fans who are upset that the filmmakers of Fantastic Beasts are sticking behind Johnny Depp in the role of Grindlewald for the Fantastic Beasts film. They're upset and they've made their feelings known and said their peace. But the same webmasters who have been vocal on Twitter against the decision to keep Depp are still covering Fantastic Beasts news on their fan sites. They're unhappy with the choice, but ultimately they're not abandoning the franchise over it because the whole of Harry Potter means more to them than one actor.

I suspect most fans who are unhappy with The Last Jedi will still turn up for Episode IX for the same reason that they are unhappy with this one: because Star Wars means something to them, as it does to us all who take the time to talk about it here.