Star Trek films on Blu-Ray... what we know so far (1 Viewer)

[benbess]

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[Steve Christou]

I can live without the directors cut of ST-TMP on Blu-ray I'm not chomping on the bit waiting for it to appear. It's not the film I saw at the cinema decades ago and to me it's not much more than a glorified fan edit. It is fascinating as Spock would say but I'll carry on watching the original 1979 release, which btw is still my favourite of the 11 Star Trek films to date. And I'm so glad it made it to Blu-ray.

I've never been a big fan of special editions or directors cuts, as long as I still have the originals somewhere in the collection I'm happy.

 

[Cinescott]

Originally Posted by Steve Christou
I can live without the directors cut of ST-TMP on Blu-ray I'm not chomping on the bit waiting for it to appear. It's not the film I saw at the cinema decades ago and to me it's not much more than a glorified fan edit. It is fascinating as Spock would say but I'll carry on watching the original 1979 release, which btw is still my favourite of the 11 Star Trek films to date. And I'm so glad it made it to Blu-ray.

I've never been a big fan of special editions or directors cuts, as long as I still have the originals somewhere in the collection I'm happy.

I agree. While the DE would be a nice addition on the shelf, I have the theatrical edition Blu-ray and that'll do for now. Like you, it's the version I saw in '79 in glorious 1080p and lossless audio. That's not bad. Now, if Paramount wouldn't make the theatrical edition so difficult to get in the States outside of the boxed set, that would be nice

 

[TravisR]

My guess is that they did sell maybe 2 million or more sets worldwide (maybe c. 700,000 sets per season), but it's only a guess, and maybe I'm wrong.

There's no way that Star Trek seasons have sold two million copies on Blu-ray. The biggest blockbusters sell 2 or 3 million copies on Blu-ray (like Avatar) but expensive box sets can't do those kinds of numbers. That being said, I'm sure Paramount still made plenty of money from it especially since it looks like they're ready to jump into The Next Generation which will be a very significant amount of money to invest.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

As someone who was less than impressed with the new effects on the DE, I question whether simply outputting them at a higher resolution would look good enough for Blu-ray. The problem I have with most of the new effects is that they simply didn't match what was in the original film - I know the people that did them said their intention was to match the look of it, but I don't think they entirely succeeded. (The merits of the DE in my opinion have more to do with the trims Wise made, the careful additions of some material from the "special longer version", and changes in the soundtrack - the new effects are by far the least impressive parts of the effort.) I just posted in a thread about the Star Wars Special Editions that for me, the problem is that the new effects there look like they were drawn over the frame, as opposed to being a natural part of it - obviously no special effect is really "there" in the on-set photography, but when done right, it certainly appears as if it was. I felt the same way about the DE, that the effects just didn't look organic to the film; for the most part, they looked like TV-show quality effects in a film where everything else had a very different, very theatrical film, state-of-the-art-models and whatnot look. The bridge-walk scene was horribly done, and is probably the most obvious example of something that doesn't look like it belongs. (The nacelle, while not looking as unnatural, still seemed odd.) I don't think the effects looked poor because they were output at 480i; I think they looked poor because they were poorly done, or if that's not entirely fair, done at a level on par with a weekly TV series as opposed to a major feature film. My concern is that simply re-rendering the same effects at a higher resolution would result in something that looked even more obviously not in tune with the film.

I don't think there's any need for me to repeat what I've often stated are my artistic complaints about some of the DE effects choices (simply look back in the thread if you can't remember me whining too much ), but I accept that those were valid artistic choices that I just happened to not agree with. But if they're gonna be in the film, at least make them look right. There are a couple new things that worked very well - for instance, in the wormhole sequence, until the DE, we never actually saw the fired torpedo taking out the asteroid, so that little moment was visually a little confusing. That was a perfect type of fix in my opinion, well thought-out, and well executed. Those changes represent the best of the effort, effects-wise.

One thing that wasn't done (and that I don't expect to be, but that would be cool to me nonetheless) would be to finish the footage of Shatner leaving the ship - I love the little bit where they're suiting him up, and it seems like it would be easy to finish the shot where you see him descending to hide the scaffolding and whatnot. (If memory serves, that was never visible on the TV version because the shot was cropped to 4x3 anyhow.) There was something about seeing Shatner floating out there, very deliberately, very slowly, that on some level made the whole sequence of events seem that much more imposing. Like, if the captain's leaving the ship in a spacesuit on his own, that's a pretty big deal in and of itself, but it also is a sign of his desperation - that Spock's wild goose chase is at that point the only chance they have, and how powerless Kirk is that all he can do is float out there and wait. That's a scene I wouldn't mind seeing included in a finished form, although I don't expect it ever will be.

 

[Chuck Anstey]

There's no way that Star Trek seasons have sold two million copies on Blu-ray. The biggest blockbusters sell 2 or 3 million copies on Blu-ray (like Avatar) but expensive box sets can't do those kinds of numbers. That being said, I'm sure Paramount still made plenty of money from it especially since it looks like they're ready to jump into The Next Generation which will be a very significant amount of money to invest.

I'm willing to bet it was more like 100K sets sold per season.

 

[Kevin EK]

I'm happy to have both editions of Star Trek TMP, and I'll be even happier to have the Director's Edition on Blu-ray next year. It is not a fan edit but rather the final work we have from Robert Wise, and it was good to see him able to get it done.

I honestly don't know the sales numbers for the Blu-ray season sets of TOS, but I think they were far lower than in the millions. Think in terms of thousands and you'll get closer to it.

The budget for the initial pilot of Fringe was considerably higher than what anyone would spend on a regular episode of any series. For example, when the pilot for the remake of Bionic Woman aired on TV 4 years ago, they spent something like 5 million on it. Then they had to go down to their regular episode budget for the shows that followed - and what do you know? You can't have all those big action sequences and FX in every scene, etc. A typical episodic budget is lower - and with a good production management team you can maximize that budget to do a lot over a season. But even then you have to do things like have a bottle episode after you do a big one, so you don't go wildly overbudget with money you don't have...

A typical season budget for 22 episodes of an episodic TV show might go as high as 60-70 mil, when you add it all up.

It's a very nice thought to conceive of a TNG upgrade to high definition with new effects, but even a cost of half a million dollars is a really high price to ask a studio to pay for more work on a TV series they already have released on DVD, online and in syndication. Considering that Paramount really put the brakes on costs with the prior Blu-ray sets, I find it difficult to believe they would suddenly spend a massive amount of money like this. It's more realistic to think they'll do the best they can with the existing masters to make them presentable for HD channels. I'm still happy with the existing season sets.

 

[Osato]

Was TNG filmed in a way that it would be possible to convert the series to 16:9 for HD and blu ray? I've read the series was filmed on 35mm film. I'm guessing that it was only framed at 4:3 however? Same with Voyager and DS9 as well?

It would be pretty cool if that happened, since from what I've read each episode will have to be recut from the film elements.

I'm guessing if the films were going to be reissued next year with the next new Star Trek film we would probably have heard something by now as far as mastering or restoration work?

 

[benbess]

 

[Worth]

It was shot 4:3. They could always leave it as is, or reframe it without too much trouble. It would have been shot with TV-safe in mind, which gives you a fair amount of extra room at the top and bottom to play with.

 

[benbess]

Originally Posted by Chuck Anstey
I'm willing to bet it was more like 100K sets sold per season.

Given a list price of $129, and an average sales price of maybe $70, then 100,000 sets sold = $7 million dollars from blu-ray alone. Add in DVD, broadcast, cable, netflix, etc, and you get a lot more than that.

It's all guessing, unless someone out there has the real sales figures. Where are those? Does anyone release the actual numbers?

 

[TravisR]

Does anyone release the actual numbers?
  

The only time that a studio releases sales numbers (in public anyway) is when they want to tout how well they did.

 

[Nelson Au]

I'm not getting my usual subscription email notices to this thread! So I missed a lot of comments in the last day!

Wow, you guys sure got into it! If TNG is really getting a HD make-over as per The Digital Bits report, then cool. As far as sales figures, I'm curious how TOS on blu ray did too. But to add to that, how did it do compared to other TV shows on DVD and Blu Ray? That might give some perspective. Perhaps the numbers quoted at 700,000 sound low, but how does that compare to other TV shows old and new? Maybe it's performing well for an old TV show. But I imagine the expectations at CBS could have been different given the investment.

For example, The Twilight Zone might be a good thing to compare. Similar market. How are those new blu rays doing? The cost is about the same. Similar buyers who bought TOS would buy TZ, I did! Both old shows and to boot, TZ is black and white!

edit: And how could I forget the question of how Space: 1999 is doing on blu in comparison as well. My guess is that it's behind Trek and Twilight Zone, but could be doing very well on it's own.

I like the discussion about the probability that the cost of the TNG HD conversion could be one that is amortized over several years and covered by potential revenue of this streaming offering. Makes sense. I'm sure that kind of math was used for the TOS HD effort. And yes, it was an after thought to do the CGI effects, but not so much for HD-DVD sales, but for broadcast, that was what they said at the time. If they were doing an HD remaster of the film elements, they felt the old effects didn't hold up to the greater resolution. But DVD and HD-DVD and BD sales was probably in the back of their minds.

As for The Motion Picture blu ray, I agree with Kevin, it can't be that costly to do the DE version given all the CGI is already done. I'm still surprised to see the fan-boy cut comments!

And I was curious, Martin Blythe used to be a Paramount representative that would come to this site and offer comments and feedback. He was with the Home Video group and led that IIRC. I think he moved on. So it would be cool is someone like him was back to the site who could address all our Star Trek questions!

 

[Bryan Tuck]

Just so everyone's clear, it should be reiterated that upgrading TNG to true HD (rather than just a simple upconvert) would be a mammoth undertaking because not only were the visual effects done at standard definition, the entire show was edited that way (at least from what I understand, as many dramatic TV series from the late 80s through the late 90s were done in this manner). We're talking about hauling out the original 35mm raw footage, scanning it at 1080p and re-conforming 178 episodes. And then redoing the visual effects on top of that.

Doing this for TNG would cost tons more than the effort on TOS, so I'm sure that's what they're trying to factor in to the decision. However, TNG was a pretty popular show in its day, so maybe it'd be worth it.

And in this case, they probably wouldn't be able to seamlessly branch the original versions, both because there would be no way to present the original effects as more than an upconvert, and also they'd most likely be running at a different frame rate (if they use 23.98 for the new versions).

Again, this is just what I understand the situation to be (I may be wrong).

 

[Douglas Monce]

Scott: I think actually that Paramount/CBS stands to make a good profit on this in the long run. Digital special effects have become a lot less expensive. I think for $10 million dollars or even less you can buy a lot of good enough digital effects, probably enough to cover a whole season. And some of the effects were in fact filmed in 35mm and then put on video. I think ILM was involved with many of the first year visual effects for TNG. They may have even filmed some of it in VistaVision! My guess is that ILM never throws anything away, and so if you can get that stuff from them it wouldn't be that expensive. And TNG has its own fan base that's about as big as TOS. Unlike many TV releases you can pretty much guarantee good sales at premium prices for this product. Plus then it'll play on Netflix, cable, commercial channels, etc. worldwide for the next few decades, reaping steady profits. If they don't do this, this product quickly becomes close to dead in a high def age...

Or how about thinking about it this way. To make a big-budget ensemble sci fi TV show today would probably cost about $4 million dollars an episode. Multiply that by 26 episodes and you're looking at a $100 million dollar gamble, which is huge money even for a major studio. If my guess is right that these season can be re-done in HD for c. $10 million a season or less, that would obviously be only 1/10th of that--and you know you'd be getting a show with a built-in fanatic fan base that has shown you can bring them back to the well again, and again, and again...

Not only am I not surprised that it looks like they are finally doing this, I'm surprised it has taken them this long to figure it out. The next question is whether they decide to do it widescreen. My guess is they will do it 1.78, and I'm fine with that....For TOS the original 1.33 aspect ratio was very important to me, but for some reason for TNG (and Voyager, I hope!) I'm flexible...

All of the ship shots were photographed on 35mm film and composited on 480 video. But effects like the transporters and the phasers, anytime there is some kind of energy beam were all done on a video paint box at 480 resolution, so ALL of that has to be recreated from scratch. Getting into later seasons where they were starting to do 3D CGI for somethings, would also have to be redone from scratch.
But thats just the effects.The film was never cut. Its all just the reels that ran through the camera. Each episode would have to be recut from scratch also. That means they would have to find the original edit notes for each episode, if they even still exist. If they don't, they would have to look at the original cut of each episode, and try and figure out which takes of which shots were used. In some cases a close up of a particular actor might be a mix of take1 , take 5, and take 8. Trying to figure that all out, will take forever and be very expensive.
This is why I say it might take longer and be more expensive than it was to make the show in the first place. Its more of a detective job (trying to figure out what was done originally) than just rescanning and recreating some of the effects shots.
I find it highly unlikely that we will get a real HD version of any of the Star Trek shows except for Star Trek and Enterprise.
Doug

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I find it highly unlikely that we will get a real HD version of any of the Star Trek shows except for Star Trek and Enterprise.

Yeah, I keep coming back to that conclusion myself, Doug - it just seems like far too much to ask. Who knows if the original negatives even exist at this point? We're talking a show that began it's run in 1987 and was finished on videotape, who knows if they thought there was reason to save the raw footage?

 

[Mark_TB]

I have to say that I'm skeptical about the whole thing. As detailed by the posters above, the entire visual side of the post-production process would have to be recreated, at great expense, and I just don't see that happening.

I hope I'm wrong, though.

- Mark

 

[SilverWook]

Some TNG stock footage was apparently scanned in for Enterprise's final episode.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/ent_vs_tng.htm

If they rebuilt "essential" episodes like Best of Both Worlds and All Good Things in HD, those would probably sell on their own.

 

[Ethan Riley]

Originally Posted by SilverWook
Some TNG stock footage was apparently scanned in for Enterprise's final episode.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/ent_vs_tng.htm

If they rebuilt "essential" episodes like Best of Both Worlds and All Good Things in HD, those would probably sell on their own.

I was thinking they should at least try to redo some of those more popular episodes--just to see what they look like, how much they cost...and if they can even be done!!!

 

[benbess]

On another forum, the Steve Hoffman music forum, I read that the raw 35mm film has all been saved, perfectly preserved, and to some degree catalogued in an air conditioned warehouse. There is a poster on that forum named Vidiot who says he was involved in a "proof of concept" for CBS a few years ago of rebuilding an episode of TNG from the ground up for HD. Not only were they able to do it, but he said it looked fantastic. But it is a huge amount of detective work and some considerable expense to reassemble and reedit the episodes as well as redo the effects. According to Vidiot it was only in the very early 90s, about midway into the production of TNG, that they started putting "bar codes" onto all the raw footage to help identify it for editing purposes. So, if they do it, and I know it is a big if, it will actually get easier as they go through the years.

To state the obvious, the entertainment business is always about taking calculated risks. Sometimes it's pretty much a one hundred million dollar vegas crap shoot for a major Hollywood film.

A Re-do of TNG is not that level of gamble in my opinion. They've already seen the strong sales of TOS in multiple formats, including vhs, dvd, and blu-ray. They've also had very strong sales of TNG in DVD. Hiring a lot of tech people, fx people, and editing people isn't cheap--but they are not normally paid superstar salaries. And frankly I imagine they'd get people who are professional but perhaps of the somewhat less expensive variety in each of these areas.

I could be wrong, but my guess is that they will do it....If they do it, once the first season is out they will be able to accurately judge the commercial potential, see how much it cost them to do it, and see if it's profitable enough to continue on.

One problem is that the first season of TNG was at times pretty weak. The second season was better, but still had significant problems. I think in the Trek community it's generally considered that only by the third season did they really have their sea legs. The 4th season was even better than the third, and from there on out--with the exception of a few duds here and there--it was a strong show to the end. And they ended on maybe the best episode they ever did. Anyway, it was a strong show from year 3 to year 7, but for newbies starting out the first two years are not always a great introduction....But even those first two years had some good episodes. The very last episode is of course a sequel to the very first. And there are continuing plot lines throughout, which makes it rewarding to watch the whole show in order.

Anyway, I like Voyager just slightly better because it didn't have the rough start that TNG had and was pretty consistently strong for all 7 years.

I never really got into DS9, and so I can't comment on that one.