joshEH
Senior HTF Member
My Facebook-feed has just been absolutely slammed with dank memes today about this:
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Sony's instincts on Spider-Man just aren't very good
True about Watts, but they've set up the third film so much in the second film's post-credits scene that it begs for MCU involvement.
Tony Stark's whole final arc is built around his relationship with Peter Parker:He played almost no role in Endgame aside from the tear jerker moment at the end; he has a bigger part in both Civil War and Infinity War. But to say he was "crucial" to any film outside his own? Nah. He was used in the stories because Marvel had access to him. If they didn't, another character does what he does in each movie.
Spider-Man is Marvel's Mickey Mouse. While there's no question that Marvel has a lot of great stories to tell without Spider-Man, he matters more than any of the newly acquired 20th Century Fox-owned characters even though they have the potential to generate a lot more money for Marvel Studios in the long term.It was the end of a contract and Disney wanted to renegotiate. Sony said they didn't want to. So Disney has every right to walk away, just like Sony does to say no. But who gets hurts here? The fans, possibly. But this is a blip on the radar now that X-Men and Fantastic Four are on the drawing board. Everyone will be saying "Spider-Man was nice...but holy cow! Wolverine and Mr. Fantastic and Thor and ..."
With all due respect to Amy Pascal, she became irrelevant to those negotiations when she ceased to be chairman of the studio. Yes, whatever Spider-Man movies come down the pike will have her fingerprints on them, the decision on whether to renew the deal or not is above the pay grades of both Pascal and Feige.Again, Pascal has been dropping hints since the deal was first signed that Sony wasn't interested in the deal continuing beyond its original terms, which was for two solo Spider-Man films. She said right during the Homecoming press tour in 2017 that she didn't think that they'd be renewing the deal.
I'm definitely not discounting that Feige is wearing a lot of hats when it comes to Marvel, and Disney might want to keep him focused on the Disney-owned hats.I think it's easy to say "Disney got greedy," but I think a more nuanced view might be, "Disney realized what a tremendous strain it was to dedicate their resources to making more Spider-Man films on a timetable that's not necessarily of their own choosing, with all of the associated drains on resources and talent that entails, with very little to show for it in return."
They're essentially asking Sony to fork over 50 percent ownership of Sony's single most valuable franchise. That is objectively unreasonable.From what's been reported, Disney isn't asking Sony to simply fork over money; Disney is asking to participate in financing the movies so that they can reap some of the rewards.
Exactly.That said, yes, Disney should have left well enough alone. It's not enough that they have 4 out of 5 billion dollar pictures this year? They need more? Everyone loses if a deal isn't struck
If Sony really does move forward with more Holland Spider-Man movies in continuity with Homecoming and Far From Home, but without Marvel Studios's participation, it will be an interesting experiment in just how essential Feige's contributions are.However, I would say that Jon Watts' instincts on Spider-Man are pretty good. We know that Kevin Feige is an involved producer, and I don't want to minimize his role. But we shouldn't minimize Watts either. He did direct two highly entertaining and substantial Spider-Man films, and if Sony keeps him, he can probably do it again.
Do we really know that, though? Kingpin appeared prominently in Into the Spider-Verse, after all. It's pretty clear that they couldn't use the Charlie Cox Netflix version of Daredevil or the Vincent D'Onofrio version of Kingpin. But they might be able to use their own live action versions of those characters, since their deal with Marvel gives them joint ownership of those characters, and they weren't party to Marvel's deal with Netflix.I think some of those fan theories you mention are unrealistic. In particular, we know Marvel can't use the characters they licensed to Netflix for a certain period of time after the cancellation of those shows, so Matt Murdock and Kingpin could never appear in a film Sony is almost certainly targeting for 2021.
Do we really know that, though? Kingpin appeared prominently in Into the Spider-Verse, after all. It's pretty clear that they couldn't use the Charlie Cox Netflix version of Daredevil or the Vincent D'Onofrio version of Kingpin. But they might be able to use their own live action versions of those characters, since their deal with Marvel gives them joint ownership of those characters, and they weren't party to Marvel's deal with Netflix.
Sony said:“Much of today’s news about Spider-Man has mischaracterized recent discussions about Kevin Feige’s involvement in the franchise. We are disappointed, but respect Disney’s decision not to have him continue as a lead producer of our next live action Spider-Man films. We hope this might change in the future, but understand that the many new responsibilities that Disney has given him – including all their newly added Marvel properties – do not allow time for him to work on IP they do not own. Kevin is terrific and we are grateful for his help and guidance and appreciate the path he has helped put us on, which we will continue.”
They're essentially asking Sony to fork over 50 percent ownership of Sony's single most valuable franchise. That is objectively unreasonable.
the decision on whether to renew the deal or not is above the pay grades of both Pascal and Feige. I'm definitely not discounting that Feige is wearing a lot of hats when it comes to Marvel, and Disney might want to keep him focused on the Disney-owned hats. That being said, I would bet that if it were up to Feige he'd make a deal happen. Spider-Man is a color he wants to keep on his pallet.
I was wrong in my previous post to lump Daredevil (now a Disney-owned character) in with Kingpin. Daredevil would definitely be bound by the Netflix deal.However, Kingpin was not part of the live-action stable of characters that Marvel bought from Sony. We know this because he was licensed to Fox for the 2003 version of Daredevil. (Of course, Disney reacquired those rights from Fox when they stopped making Daredevil movies, which led to the Netflix series; I just mean that because we know Kingpin was in Fox's deal originally, he couldn't also have been in Sony's original deal.)
When I saw Spider-Verse, I expected that Sony asked Disney to let them use Kingpin in Spider-Verse, and Disney acquiesced to that because of the Sony/Marvel deal on the Holland films, and because they knew they couldn't use Kingpin in a non-Netflix project anyway. But that's just a guess. Obviously, it's all conjecture unless one of us has access to the specific legalese in Sony and Marvel's various contracts.
The problem is that in exchange for fronting 50 percent of the cost, Disney gets 50 percent of the take home. Spider-Man for Disney would be one viable franchise among many. Spider-Man for Sony is a much more important asset. And I'm not so sure that Disney can be said to have done 100 percent of the work on Homecoming or Far From Home.I really don’t see it that way. They’re just asking to pay for 50% of the MCU-Holland series and split the earnings. Sony would still get all the profits from Venom movies and animated Spider-Man movies and any other Spider-Man thing they did. I still think Disney paying for 50% of the movie and doing 100% of the work is a great deal. I bet any other studio would jump at that offer.
The question is who audiences (at least the slice of audiences that actually care about this kind of thing) are going to blame. Disney has a much better record of spin than Sony does.Alan Horn said in an interview earlier this year that there are certain things Disney just can't do because they'd "get letters." Well, they're going to get letters about this, too, for sure.
Tony Stark's whole final arc is built around his relationship with Peter Parker:
- Captain America: Civil War: Tony drafts Spider-Man into his personal feud with Steve Rogers
- Spider-Man: Homecoming: He mentors Peter and emotionally invests in Peter Parker as a person.
- Avengers: Infinity War: He loses Peter to the Snap.
- Avengers: Endgame: He risks everything to bring Peter back. Without his investment in Peter Parker, he's not motivated to invent time travel.
Spider-Man is Marvel's Mickey Mouse. While there's no question that Marvel has a lot of great stories to tell without Spider-Man, he matters more than any of the newly acquired 20th Century Fox-owned characters even though they have the potential to generate a lot more money for Marvel Studios in the long term.