Sony dropped the ball on the DA4ES (1 Viewer)

[AndyHangartner]

Robert
I think I'll add that if wanting a great deal on a pre/pro the 4es fits the bill if you want to use it that way. It is feature laden fot the price and the Sony surround sounds are fabulous. If you are looking for an all in one, it is also really good. If soundstaging and depth and the other terms used for two channel are of high importance, don't look for a s/s amp. Go and listen to a tube amp. Even a $500 tube blows away the $4k aragon in these categories and most every other s/s amp out there. You owe it to yourself to listen to one. In comparisons of ten different s/s amps (from moderate to high dollar) to an Antique Sound Labs with KT-88 valves the results were astonishingly in favor of the the tube amp. So obvious were the differences that my wife insisted we get rid of the Aragon and leave the shop with a tube amplifier. Hence, the BAT VK60 left with us.(For anyone that knows it, I know thw BAT doesn't use the KT88 valve).

 

[Dalton]

You might think that the Aragon has better bass control but if you have a powered sub like every self-respecting H/T'er you wouldn't be listening for that.

This sounds pretty insulting(which my original post was not insulting at all). I never once mentioned bass control. I have dual SVS Subs thank you very much. I was talking about detail, clarity, and imaging in the higher frequencies above the 80-100hz region. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion but don't go telling me i am wrong either. The 4es may sound as good as the Denon 4802 or the Aragon 8008x5 in your opinion, but not mine. As a matter of fact I never once said anything negative about the 4es, i actually said it was good receiver for the $$$. It's all about the ears of the listener in the end.

 

[Seth_L]

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion but don't go telling me i am wrong either. The 4es may sound as good as the Denon 4802 or the Aragon 8008x5 in your opinion, but not mine.

So he can only have an opinion as long as it doesn't oppose yours? I'd wager that you can't hear the difference between the two amps. In fact I believe there's someone with $10,000 riding on the fact that you can't either. Maybe you should be the first person to take his money. I think it's Richard Clark. He's known more in car audio circles than home audio.

Seth

 

[Dalton]

So he can only have an opinion as long as it doesn't oppose yours?

Seth,
Where did i say that? I was simply saying he has a right to his opinion. He was the one telling me i can't hear a difference between the 2 amps. Who are you to tell me what i can and can not hear? It sounds like you believe all amps sound the same.
Just answer this question for me then. Why would anyone want to buy a separate HT Preamp/amp combo? Why waste your money if a receiver is going to sound just as good?

 

[Seth_L]

Seth,
Where did i say that? I was simply saying he has a right to his opinion. He was the one telling me i can't hear a difference between the 2 amps. Who are you to tell me what i can and can not hear? It sounds like you believe all amps sound the same.
Just answer this question for me then. Why would anyone want to buy a separate HT Preamp/amp combo? Why waste your money if a receiver is going to sound just as good?

Dalton,

You said, "You are certainly entitled to your own opinion but don't go telling me i am wrong either." How else am I supposed to read that sentence? You seem to indicate that he can have an opinion, but he shouldn't contradict you.

I'm not telling you what you can hear or not. I'm merely pointing out that no one else has been able to take Richard Clark's money, what makes you think that you're the exception to the rule? If a lot of other people have tried and failed, what makes you so certain that you'll be the one who won't? Sounds like arrogance to me. You're convinced that your hearing is better than everyone elses.

Seth

 

[Rob Rodier]

Lets say that you have a pair of speakers that have an impedance of 6ohms with 81db sensativity. Are you trying to tell me that a Sony receiver is going to sound as good as an Aragon 8008?

If not, than were will it? 8ohms and 87db, 90db?

There are more factors than this vs that. Some applications call for gobs of high current power and some don't. I can tell you that my hk receiver cannot handle my front channels alone. It does not have the juice.

That is one of the reasons that speaker manf started hometheater lines of speakers.(now mainstream for most manf and without the ht label) Efficient and easy to drive for the mass market receivers. Try a pair of low efficiency monitors with a Sony reciever, es or not. You will not like the results.

-rob

 

[Kevin Deacon]

Hey Seth, Who is Dick Clark? Lets hear about his tests. What equipment does he use? Where is the proof that no one has been able to take Dick's 10,000? How were the test performed, are they double blind tests???? I want you to honestly tell me I won't be able to tell a difference driving 5 home theater speakers with 87db efficieny at reference level, or even 10db less than reference. I'll wager that the receiver will be severely clipping.

 

[Rob Rodier]

He got the name wrong. it is someone else, unless there are two. The "catch" is that both ss amps need to be operating in their "design range". That limits things quite a bit especially the lower sensativity speaker models. Still, they are remarkable findings. There is a discussion going on under "which amp" or something like that right now on this board. Check out that thread for more info on the "challenge".

-rob

edit; What Power Amp would you buy???

 

[Seth_L]

Richard Clark is a car audio guy. Originally the challenge started to try and prove that there was no need to buy expensive car audio amps because they sounded better. He has since opened it up to home audio amps. You can even compare tube amps to SS.

If I were buying a power amp I'd probably get a QSC amp in the PLX or DCA line-up.

Seth

 

[Robert McClanahan]

I will only say that through all this bickering,only one thing is true.Raw power makes the difference in sound.Power supply is everything in an amp and a receiver can only benefit from having an outboard amp.The built in amps on any receiver simply can not compete with an outboard amp that is at least double the power output in a receivers internal amps.I know from experience and it is important to pay attention to a receivers preamp section which Sony ES receiver specs clearly show outperform Yamahas.The benefit of seperates is that the power amp and the preamp have seperate power supplies.

 

[AndyHangartner]

81 db sensitivity huh?
Now thats extreme. How many watts do you think it takes to drive an 89 db efficiency speaker at reference? (which most people including myself do not listen at. If you say you do you are deaf or lying), Or -10db?
If you think its way up there you are wrong. The musical peaks are what get you.
Kevin you live in Phx, myself in Chandler. Got money? Place your bet. I'll even use the 60 watt tube if you want. You pick. The only thing I changed that made an astounding difference was going from the Denon 4802 to the Sony. It sounded like I took blankets off the speakers. I had Citation 7.1's and the Aragon 8008x5 and the Adcom7500. I no longer have them because they made very little if any difference on the Sony, more so on the Denon,and maybe would have helped if I had abnormally inefficient 81db speakers, which by formula do not need 500 watts to drive either. Most listening is done at less than 10 watts, hence the a/b bias in many amps, where the first 10 or 20 watts (depending on the amp) are in class A.
andy

 

[Gil D]

Andy,
Your PSB's, although still very good speakers particularly in the midbass, may have been the limiting factor in attempting to extract more detail out of your system with separates.

When I had tower speakers I could tell a significant difference in bass output with a power amp compared to the receiver's I had at the time.

I really like the Sony ES's abilities in HT, especially in problem rooms with less than optimum speaker placement, and they have improved the two channel as well.

 

[randy bessinger]

Here is link to part 1 comparing 4es to 9000ES used as preamps that you might be interested in.
http://www.audioholics.com/productre...battleP1_1.php

 

[Rob Rodier]

Andy,
My speakers are 6ohm nominal with a 83.5 db senstativity.
http://www.sonic.net/soundscape/solo_rv.html
I was forced to use an Adcom 545mkII as a stand in for a little while. It is rated at 100x2 into 8 ohms. You would be amazed how quick those little clip leds lit up when the amp was driving these. Amplification is not about how loud your system can play(well, not only about). Refinement, control, etc.
I wish I was in an area were I could take your money
-rob

 

[Kevin Deacon]

Andy, I do know that the Sony will be very strained when it hits those musical peaks at reference level or even -10db under reference (with my speakers at least - 87db efficient). Yes, sometimes I do listen to music at reference, although for a very short while. Mainly I like to crank it up on movies with good sound effects. I have the Sony on loan from Ultimate Electronics and have compared its internal amps with with my separate Parasound 2 & 3 channel 220 watt into 8ohm amps. The Parasounds wallop the Sony on loud passages. The Sony sounds strained. I can agree it would be almost impossible to tell the two systems apart at moderate listening levels. I need the power for my needs, plus it just feels good
It sounds like your speakers did not mate very well with the Denon or the Aragon. That is not to say they are bad pieces of equipment (Let me qualify that statement: I am not assuming you said they are bad), they just don't mate well. Warm amp with warm speakers, warm amp with bright speakers, bright with bright, so many options to choose from. I think this whole discussion comes down to personal opinions. I'm done.

 

[JackS]

Randy- Thanks for the link. Interesting and sort of an excercise in futility when trying to compare a receiver to a standalone processor. I am glad though that someone has finally decided it was time for a comparison between the two. Anyone considering a receiver as a pre-amp, should enter into their decision with their eyes wide open and recognise the value that receivers offer versus the absolute pinnacle and costly expense of owning true seperates. Recievers as pre-amps are a value when considering that they can be the first step of a total seperates system in the future if one is inclined to move ahead further in "the quest". Comprimises are made by 99% of all members of this forum ,and most of these comprimises involve money. I think everyone has noticed by now, I'm a believer in receivers as pre/pros. Great value and an option to eventually go true seperates one day seals it for me.

 

[Jacques C]

Here is link to part 1 comparing 4es to 9000ES used as preamps that you might be interested in.

Randy,

I wish you would do more than tease us with that bit you posted. ;-) I can handle all 32 pages, trust me. I am also very interested in your findings, particularly what you found out about the DACs, whose specs are nowhere to be found.

Oh well, for better or worse I have a new DA4ES sitting in a box here waiting to go into my rig. It was the only high quality receiver on the market that had a good 7.1 processing system at a price point I could swing. The 5 year warranty is a plus, too.

The one thing I did notice about the receiver is that the 4 ohm power ratings drop to 90W from 100W (from the specs in the manual). I know the DA3ES tested out very well at 4 ohms. I wonder how that plays out in the real world with the DA4ES?

Take care.

 

[Craig_Kg]

The one thing I did notice about the receiver is that the 4 ohm power ratings drop to 90W from 100W (from the specs in the manual). I know the DA3ES tested out very well at 4 ohms. I wonder how that plays out in the real world with the DA4ES?

Again, a lot comes back to what impedance setting is used when measuring the output.

 

[AaronBatiuk]

Just a quick followup on the DB830 and the impedance switch: The 4/8 ohm switch is not connected in the path of the speaker outputs nor the power supply. It is a simple SPST switch that will activate a circuit on the main board to activate relays to select one of two voltage outputs of the main transformer. Nothing else. There are no large 4 ohm resistors in the box that could be used as series-connected impedance-matching/current-limiting devices as was suggested may be the case (and is no doubt the case in some low-end receivers).

In listening tests, I could discern no real difference with the switch in the 4 or 8 ohm posistion. For the record, the switch now remains at its 8 ohm position. I noticed that the receiver ran sufficiently cool with it in that position, and since that was my only conern, I left it there (my mains are 6 ohm and the rest are 8 ohm).