Sony dropped the ball on the DA4ES (1 Viewer)

[Kevin Deacon]

I've been looking for a receiver to use as a pre/pro. I have 5 channels of Parasound power. I've looked at Yamaha, Sony, and Denon. My criteria includes multi-room with the ability to assign two of the receivers amps as the power for the 2nd room. I thought I would try the Sony 4ES after a 10 year Sony boycott. The salesman at Ultimate Electronics said the 4ES had all the same goodies as the 3ES, plus some. Well, after bringing the beast home and reading the manual nowhere does it state that two of the internal amps can be used to power a second room. The 3ES can do it, why not the 4ES. Sony let me down again, simply amazing.

I'm not yet sold on the Denon (not a Denon fan-boy) and none of the Yamahas have the powered multi-room capability except the real expensive RXZ1.

Why does Sony take features away on the newer receivers? I now either must go Denon (not a Denon fan-boy) or get the 3ES which has less surround processing. Will I miss the newer surround processors if I only currently have five channels?

Any thoughts? BTW, $1000.00us is the limit.

 

[Craig_Kg]

Why not use the Sony amps to drive your surrounds so 2 of the Parasound channels can be used for the 2nd room?

 

[Kevin Deacon]

Craig, thanks for the reply. It would be very tough for me to justify using 220 Parasound watts to power a pair of very small patio speakers. I have a 2 channel Parasound and a 3 channel Parasound which are quite large pieces and knowing that two channels are not being used for the theater would be heartbreaking. I do understand that the rears don't need that much power, but I just can't do it.

I've been thinking about so many receiver options that I'm overwhelmed. I do have the 30 day trial period from Ultimate Electronics so I'm not in a rush.

 

[Juan_R]

Look for a 5ES then. Or if you like I will trade you my 5ES for you 4ES.

 

[Rommel_L]

Kevin,

Why not get some inexpensive stereo amplifiers (i.e. Audiosource, etc.) to power those patio speakers in the 2nd room?

Why not use the Sony amps to drive your surrounds so 2 of the Parasound channels can be used for the 2nd room?

The amps on the receiver are designed to used in the primary room. It just so happens the DA4ES has the ability to have its amps bypassed if you have better amps.

If you still like to get the DA4ES then by all means get it, just remember to get an extra set of amp to power the 2nd room.

Hope this helps...

-RL-

 

[JohnDW]

...and its a good thing you can bypass those amps - no current ! Has anyone noticed that the 4aes puts out LESS watts into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms (110 vs 100) ? Sounds like a prescription for Klipsch speakers in a small room - Sony amps have descended a long way in their receivers from the days of the 777es unfortunately....this at a time when HK, Pioneer elite have high current receivers out there and Denon and Onkyo (while less conservative in their amp specs) do provide close to their 170 and 140 watts into 8 ohms...

 

[JackS]

John- That would be in contrast to a recent published power rating that very favorably rated the output of the DA3. My guess is that Sony is very conservative in its 4ohm ratings. Even the vaunted 777es (which I own), was very under rated by Sony (120watts/8ohms 100watts/4ohms). Yes, no missprint, 100 watts/4ohms. Independantly, this receiver has been reported to nearly double output into 4ohms. This receiver was initially reported to feature an ability to nearly double its output in stereo mode, but for unknown reasons never explained by Sony, this feature never appeared on the 777. Power ratings for the DA4/5/7 shoud eventually be published and only then will we know for sure.

 

[AaronBatiuk]

Kevin, the 5ES has nearly all the capabilities of the slightly newer 4ES, except that it has the ability to power a second zone, using the front-center and surround-back amps. It also has (IIRC) a 3rd zone pre-amp output, and it comes with a second remote to keep in one of the other zones, in addition to a 2-way remote for the main zone.

The 5ES also has a "real" motorised volume control (not the 360-degree spinny digital jog-dial type on the 4ES). The 5ES it lacks dts 24/96 decoding and does not have the 12V triggers or the IR in/out jacks that the 4ES has. The 5ES has 6 amp channels instead of 7, but it has full 7 channel pre-amp outputs.

 

[AaronBatiuk]

John,

Looking at the RMS power rating does not tell the whole story. If you look at the Dynamic power rating on the Sonys, you will see a different picture. The dynamic power into a 4 ohm load (with the power supply set to 4 ohm) is substantially higher than for a 8 ohm load (with p.s. set to 8 ohm). I don't happen to have the manual in front of me (will update my post as soon as I can), but it is somewhere between 250 and 300 Watt per channel in 4 ohm mode. (Dynamic power respresents the clipping point of the amp for a very brief time).

Also note that going down to 100 W from 110 W is a difference of -0.4 dB. You literally couldn't hear the difference.
10 * log(100/110) = -0.4 dB

 

[Kevin Deacon]

Thanks for the input Aaron. I found out over the weekend that I don't need any extra power for the second zone. Some one showed me that if I run cables from the Tape Out on the main receiver or Pre/Pro to the CD ins on the second receiver (which I am now using for the second zone), I can get any analog signal to the second zone. I should also be able to run the multi zone pre-outs to the CD ins on the second receiver and get analog signals, Right?

 

[Juan_R]

I was at the Cruthfield website and saw the specs for the 5ES, it said that it is 96k/24-bit capable, it says the same thing for the 4ES. I wonder if that is a mistake.

 

[Robert McClanahan]

The 4ES does have that energy star logo on it(IJUST GOT ONE)which may explain why it is not high current.

 

[JackS]

Robert- Watts are watts. 100 watts on the Sony is the same as 100 watts on anything else. The Energy Star probably pertains to power used at idle and/or automatic power off during a measured time of non-use. If the Sony has one or both or more of these features, the better. The last TV my mom bought had the Energy Star feature and the ability to turn this feature off if preffered. On the TV, this feature supplied less current to the picture tube thus, a slightly less bright picture.

 

[Robert McClanahan]

It does have automatic shutoff,but runs pretty hot at idle.I will disagree with the "watts are watts" statement.There are many things that contribute to a quality 100watt amp, including power supply,damping factor,and dynamic reserve power.I understand what you are saying though and it was a good response to my statement.Thanks

 

[JohnDW]

Check out the review a few months ago on 4es (it was either HT or SGHT) - reviewer liked the pre/pro feature set and modes, not impressed with the amp -

 

[Robert McClanahan]

John,thanks for that info.I believe this Sony 4ES is a really good match for my Tannoy's.It seems to make their horns really sing.They sound like horns.I have been down the high end separates road,but have realized over the years that it is all about what sounds good to 'YOUR EARS" not what's on the spec sheet.I feel I have strayed from the original post so lets get back to what it was about.Kevin wants to know why Sony offers a feature he wants that is on a lower priced model but is not offered on the higher priced 4ES.Only Sony can answer that one,but the 4ES is not a slouch by any means IMHO.

 

[Craig_Kg]

The low 4 ohm output figures are most likely due to the measurement being made with the impedance switch set to the 4 ohm position. The shunt resistance then limits the current output so the receiver doesn't shut down but this limits the power output and ruins the damping factor.

In short, never use the 4 ohm position and if the receiver shuts down, then lower the volume.

 

[AaronBatiuk]

I should also be able to run the multi zone pre-outs to the CD ins on the second receiver and get analog signals, Right?

Exactly right, Kevin. This will let you choose the source independently for the second zone. If you run cables from one of the tape outputs to the second zone, you will only get the same audio source as the main zone.

 

[AaronBatiuk]

The shunt resistance then limits the current output so the receiver doesn't shut down but this limits the power output and ruins the damping factor

Craig, just what the heck are you talking about? Shunt resistance? That's ridiculous. Absurd even.
Switching to 4 ohm mode (on a Sony receiver) selects lower voltage secondaries on the main power transformer (about 30% lower). I've explained this before in one of your other posts "warning" others to not use 4 ohm mode, but I guess you weren't listening. The lower power supply rail voltages correspond to the lower voltage needed for a given power output into the lower resistance/impedance load.
P=V^2/R
( Power = Voltage^2 / Resistance )
If R (resistance or impedance of the speaker) is 1/2 of before (i.e. 4 ohm instead of 8 ohm), then V (voltage output of amplifier) must be sqrt(2) or 0.7071 or 71% of before, in order to have the same P (power). Lowering the voltage rails will lower the amount of heat produced by the amp (any voltage not appearing at the output of the amp is being "dropped" by the amp's transistors, creating heat). A lower voltage secondary on the same transformer also has fewer turns of wire, and so also has less resistance. This means higher current output capability and less heat produced (within the transformer) as a result of the current flow.
People are here to listen to opinions and advice, but they want informed opinions to help them make informed decisions.

 

[Craig_Kg]

Where do you get YOUR info Aaron?

Series resistance is the standard way to limit current (which is what the switch is designed to do) so the receiver does not shut down. If what you are saying is true, then the multichannel power output with the 4 ohm setting will be better than in the 8 ohm setting (for the same output load) since the power supply would be less strained. This is not the case - the usuable output is less when the power supply saturates in 4 ohm mode since some of the amplifiers' output is being disappated internally.

Lower output voltage will ensure that power output is reduced in the same load so how does the higher current result? The current limit is not set by the secondary windings in the power supply but the thermal limits of the output transistors.

The amps run in low bias A/B mode, not class A so unused output is not "dropped" across the transistors or resistors.