SACD's & DVD-A's marketshare (1 Viewer)

[KeithH]

Seth, I didn't say it was a good idea in the real world. However, that would be a good way to see if SACD had any appeal to the masses. Give them no choice and see what they do.

 

[mike_decock]

what if the labels stopped producing CDs and only produced single-layer SACDs?

I wouldn't buy either out of sheer contempt and I'm a friggin' audiophile! I'll just spend the rest of my days picking up vinyl.

-Mike...

 

[Ed St. Clair]

People are happy with CD.
I do believe this statement true and has a negative effect on SACD/DVD-A sales/penetration.
The funny thing is I never though I would hear, that the 'consensus' of people are happy with CD sound.
No other music format has taken as much flack as CD.
People loved & still love 78's.
People L&SL vinyl.
You still have people playing wax, paper, metal, etc. rolls with huge smiles on their faces.
People still buy 8-tracks for goodness sake.
And people bought & collected prerecorded cassettes, IMO, the weakest sounding modern audio source of all [although I truly enjoyed recording cassettes].
The only time I noticed people championing CD, after the initial hype died down [and not taking into account the convenience issue, just the audio issue], was when SACD/DVD-A was stated for release.
CD was the ugly stepchild of audio, until formats expecting to cost $25 to $30 a disc, with new $1000+ players required.
That's when I heard;
People are happy with CD [sound].

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I do believe this statement true and has a negative effect on SACD/DVD-A sales/penetration.

Ed,

Yes people are happy, but only because they have not heard better!

Once people hear the wonders of Super Audio and can get big brand name titles readily, we may see mass market acceptance to take root over time. Also, people look to musicians. What happens when people hear their favorite artists talk about a new format - I think that influences their buying behavior. I know of more than a few Rolling Stones fans that bought SACD players when they found out Mick and Keef got a Super Audio player.

This mass market sell-through may or may not happen. I don't have a crystal ball. It will depend on how quickly the public can be educated, how many big titles get released, how the marketing programs are coordinated and funded, and many other variables.

My only disagreement with others in this thread is that I truly believe it is possible for the high-rez formats to gain mass-market acceptance.

I won't happen overnight but it can happen.

 

[Rachael B]

Lee, if and only when Sony makes all their discs hybrids, the hybrid format can begin to slowly chiesel away at redbook CD. Sony is absolutely delusional if they think joe average can't wait to rush out and buy a better audio disc system that isn't backwardly compatiable. As long as Sony keeps pouring out these single-layer discs they are huting their own cause. The utter stupidity of Sony's marketing astounds me!

I've pretty much quit buying Sony label discs. I might buy a scant few this year. I bought Jorma Kaukonen's BLUE COUNTRY HEART because I'm a big fan. I returned James Taylor's JT because my copy was defective and I suspect Busted Buy had what they knew were defective copies to sell for cheap. They refused to get me another copy so I took a refund. Not to mention that the disc obviously has an authoring problem. It's not changer friendly. There's enough quality software available elsewhere to occupy me for the most part and more on the way. Bring on the CCR!

Lee, you overestimate the general public's appetite for better audio. It's pretty casual and soft IMO. I think you know too many audiophiles to have a clear view through the trees, maybe?

I hope SACD can tread water long enough to take hold despite SONY! Lee, those of us buying this format at this point are such a tin-ney, tiny minority...!

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Lee, you overestimate the general public's appetite for better audio. It's pretty casual and soft IMO. I think you know too many audiophiles to have a clear view through the trees, maybe?

No, I just remember the same reaction people initially had to DVD. Many family members said "nah, thanks but video tape quality is good for me..."
Plus the onset of high def TV (if this actually occurs ) may create an environment where people get more curious about advanced technology. Right now there seems to a backlash against all things tech...

 

[Marc Colella]

No, I just remember the same reaction people initially had to DVD. Many family members said "nah, thanks but video tape quality is good for me..."

Totally different scenarios.

DVD replaced a tape-based system (VHS), and even on cheap television sets - the difference in picture quality was pretty amazing.
Plus they have the advantage of offering improved sound, subtitles and tons of extras. All this is offered on nice "shiny discs" at reasonable prices.

Most people would have a hard time hearing the difference between CDs and SACD, especially since most listen to their music on cheap audio systems. The digital revolution for music has been entrenched for some time now, where we've just started the digital age for video.

 

[Al B. C]

Just an observation.
Sunday I had the chance to browse around Ultimate Electronics after I dropped my wife off at the mall. After wandering around the whole store, and chatting with 3 salespersons at 3 different departments in the store, this is the impression I came away with.
They all said, in their opinion of course, that SACD was going to be a dead issue in just a matter time due to the lack of support from Sony. I asked the most knowledgeable one of the bunch to give me an example. That's when he pointed to their huge display of CD & DVD players and said "Do you see all those units up there? We have at least 12 skews that offer DVD-A and only 2 with SACD capabilities. What does that tell you?" He also went on to rant about Sony discontinuing all their stand alone CD players with SACD except the $3000 model. His last comment to me was "If they (Sony) are afraid to throw the needed support behind their own format, why should anyone else care?"
Now you can brush this off as just a bunch of goofy salespeople who may or may not know what they are talking about. But believe me, they do leave a lasting impression on the average public, and can make or break a product. Now this was just one store, so I don't have volumes of research on this subject, but I'll just bet that this is happening in a lot of other retail locations.

 

[KeithH]

mike_decock,
Great response. I hear you.
Al said:

Now you can brush this off as just a bunch of goofy salespeople who may or may not know what they are talking about.

Actually, these sound like some of the more astute salespeople one could hope to encounter in a large retail store. I certainly share the same frustrations/fears as these salespeople. Hopefully this point of view will prove to be wrong.

 

[mike_decock]

mike_decock,
Great response. I hear you.

Hehehe. I had to scroll up to remember what I had written. Sometimes I'm guilty of just ranting for the sake of it .
-Mike...

 

[Phil A]

Al, I got my 1st DVD player early on and went into a chain similar to Tweeter's but smaller and heard the sales people tell several people why DVD won't make it. It is way too early to predict the death of anything at this point.

One also has to remember that Sony Electronics and Sony Music are separate as far as showing a profit. I'm sure if it was up to Sony Electronics, there would be much more in the way of titles and hybrids. For either DVD-A or SACD to move beyond a niche market they need more software of not only classic albums but current releases as well.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Al, I got my 1st DVD player early on and went into a chain similar to Tweeter's but smaller and heard the sales people tell several people why DVD won't make it. It is way too early to predict the death of anything at this point.

Well said Phil.
Al, it's really funny that the whole subject of SACD available titles versus DVDA titles did not come up.
It's so easy to bash Sony and make conjectures about what they invested and how screwed up they are. Sure, as a big company they can be very uncoordinated.
But you have to remember Warner has relaunched DVD Audio THREE different times and it still ain't working. And the number of labels joining SACD is about 20:1 to DVDA label signups the past two weeks.
This thing is far from over...

 

[Al B. C]

Al, it's really funny that the whole subject of SACD available titles versus DVDA titles did not come up.

It's so easy to bash Sony and make conjectures about what they invested and how screwed up they are. Sure, as a big company they can be very uncoordinated.

But you have to remember Warner has relaunched DVD Audio THREE different times and it still ain't working. And the number of labels joining SACD is about 20:1 to DVDA label signups the past two weeks.

This thing is far from over...

I am also not trying to compare the amount of titles available for each format. But since you brought it up, if someone makes an abundance of food to eat, and there is no one to eat it all, it just spoils and you wind up throwing it away anyway.

Remember - 12 DVD-A machines. 2 SACD machines. You gotta get these machines in the hands of the masses to make a difference. I remember not too long ago when there was more beta tapes to rent than VHS.

What happened? Better marketing on the VHS side. They put more players in more homes, more mouths to feed if you will. Bye bye beta.

Now if I'm a big manufacturer, ala Sony, not only do you have to market to the masses, but almost more importantly, you have to get the salespeople on your side. Believe me, I have been in this business long enough, if you want to sell your product, you had better sell the salesman!

And finally - I actually went there thinking that I may as well go ahead and buy an SACD player. What's a few hundred bucks more to invest on my system when I've already got thousands tied up.

But from what I heard - I think I'll wait a little longer.

 

[Mike Broadman]

I'm not directing this just at you, Al, but this is something that I'm trying to understand: factoring in the unkown future of a format when deciding whether to get into it.

If SACD shuts down tomorrow forever, my player would still be worth it because I still have dozens of titles to enjoy.

If there is a significant amount of music out there on the format that you like, it seems to me that that's reason enough to get it.

Is it that some people are expecting these formats to replace CD? If so, that is incorrect, IMO. That simply won't happen, at least not anytime soon.


NP: Marillion, Front Row Club 1

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Now if I'm a big manufacturer, ala Sony, not only do you have to market to the masses, but almost more importantly, you have to get the salespeople on your side. Believe me, I have been in this business long enough, if you want to sell your product, you had better sell the salesman!

Al,
I agree with this statement. Getting the salespeople on board is important. When I visit my Tweeter stores in Atlanta, known locally as HiFi Buys, many more salesfolk know about SACD than DVD Audio. In fact, Sony and HiFi Buys have put on numerous joint presentations together in introductory events on weekends. You experience with Ultimate is one valid data point, but I think the exception to the rule.
The other thing Sony has to do is sell the opinion leaders of the audio industry - the high end and mid range press. On this point, Super Audio is WAY AHEAD. Both Stereophile and Absolute Sound have endorsed Super Audio as the leading format and there are many more SACD reviews done monthly than DVDA.
Look also at influential websites like Audio Asylum, Positive Feedback and Steve Hoffman TV. They are all very enthusiastic about Super Audio. Music fans who love good sonics are likely to be driven by these sites into their dealers asking about the format.

 

[Al B. C]

100% true statement! Somewhat.

I have over 300 LD's that I hardly ever touch anymore. I can play them any time I want. I just don't.

Let me say this (just so there is no misunderstanding). I want one of these formats to survive and live on, not both of them die a fiery death. I don't really care which one. I just happened to have DVD-A capabilities on my Toshiba SD-9200 player when I bought it, so through natural progression, I have bought DVD-A discs. Which supports my claim, if people have the ability to play one format or another on their player, they just might pick up some discs, and then...................

 

[Al B. C]

You experience with Ultimate is one valid data point, but I think the exception to the rule.

Not really. Salespeople will take the path of least resistance to make a sale. If that salesman used the line "We have 12 DVD-A players to 2 SACD players." on me, you can bet he uses it on almost everyone of his customers. And if he happens to be successful using that approach selling an item quickly, and then moving on to another customer, (when you work a fast floor you need to keep them moving), other salesman will pick up on that approach and start using it.

Also high end audio stores are not going to win this so called battle Lee, it will be "won" in the B&M's.

 

[mike_decock]

If that salesman used the line "We have 12 DVD-A players to 2 SACD players."

Then he may just be into DVD-A personally. Maybe the store manager is getting taken to lunch more often by the distributors pushing the DVD-A players at him so he orders the salesmen to tow that line.

Personally, I've found Ultimate Electronics to be nothing more than a glorified Best Buy. So they carry Krell and a few other high end items, their sales staff left me thoroughly unimpressed and their demo rooms were marginally (and I mean a SMALL margin) better than Best Buy.

-Mike...

 

[Rachael B]

There going to be more SACD machines on the shelves soon anyway, so that 12 to 2 sales pitch is a junk oppinion! Yamaha for one. My brain is stuck in low gear at the moment because I know several other manufacturers are getting on board with universal players. I have a feeling that we're going to see mostly combi-players this coming year. I hope that Sony continues to offer stand alone SACD decks. I wish somebody besides Marantz would too.

My personal hope for SACD this year is to see it make aleast 1% marketshare and nudge ahead of vinyl. That's a realistic goal or expectation.... The Stones discs could push it close, maybe?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

There going to be more SACD machines on the shelves soon anyway, so that 12 to 2 sales pitch is a junk oppinion!

Rachael,
Here is some news about two new universal players.
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=10869931