Reciever Crossovers

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by BrandonCB, Dec 15, 2002.

  1. BrandonCB

    BrandonCB Extra

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    I had a question about the different crossover frequencies on recievers. I'm trying to decide between the Onkyo $300 model with the 80, 100, 120 Hz frequencies and a Pioneer with 100, 150, 200 Hz. Could someone explain the differences between different crossover values? As I understand it it will only send values above the crossover to the satellites and below to the sub, so why would you want to have a crossover so high (200Hz)? Thanks.
     
  2. BrandonCB

    BrandonCB Extra

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    Come on, I know someone here can explain this to me...
     
  3. RichardH

    RichardH Supporting Actor

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    Yes, you have it right. A crossover simply sends the frequencies above the cutoff to the satellite speakers and the frequencies below the cutoff to the subwoofer.

    The THX standard (and the most popular for most receiver brands) is an 80 Hz crossover. This is a pretty good frequency for splitting because bass is more or less non-directional below 80 Hz.

    Personally, I would not get a receiver that doesn't have an 80Hz crossover as a choice or fixed.

    The 200Hz setting is probably for really small speakers (think Bose cubes). Asking your sub to play up to 200Hz is a bad idea.
     
  4. Phuong

    Phuong Stunt Coordinator

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    Brandon,

    the Marantz receivers have a 100Hz and that caused a swarm of controversy on this forum, with people conflicted over their enthusiasm for the reputed high sound quality of Marantz receivers but unwilling to compromise on their need for a lower crossover to keep their sub nondirectional and to get the most out of their medium-sized speakers. To this day, no one is really sure what the exact crossover frequency of the Marantz receivers is (the THX ones are are of course crossed over at 80 Hz). To this day, I stay away from marantz for that uncertainly. If I knew for sure Marantz receivers had an 80 Hz crossover, I'd have one right now. Certain brands people are sure have an 80 Hz crossover, such as Onkyo, Denon, and Kenwood (plus all the THX models). The Yamaha receivers have a 90 Hz crossover, which is as high as I'd be willing to go. Some people want an even lower crossover than 80 Hz. If you have tower speakers, I think a 60 Hz crossover might work better, but I wouldn't go any lower. Then you start losing dynamic range because you're dedicating too much amp power to producing bass when you already have a powered sub to accomplish that task.

    Good luck
     
  5. BrandonCB

    BrandonCB Extra

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    So basically, doesn't that make the Pioneer recievers worthless? The lowest any of them have is 100Hz! I don't see why Pioneer would be so stupid...

    Also, what exactly do frequency responses mean on satellites? Like for the JBL NSP1 set, it says the frequency responses are 80Hz-20Hz, certainly that can't mean what I would think it would mean...
     
  6. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    I have no issue with my 100Hz x-over on my Marantz. I also do not have any issues with "directionality" of the sub, as proper calibration and placement takes care of that.
     
  7. RichardH

    RichardH Supporting Actor

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    Brandon:

    That is likely a typo on the NSP-1, and should have read 80 Hz to 20 kHz. Sometimes you see it like this:

    80-20k Hz, which can also be confusing.
     
  8. BrandonCB

    BrandonCB Extra

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  9. Phuong

    Phuong Stunt Coordinator

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    Depends on your music preferences. If you listen to vocal-oriented songs, a lot of bass won't dip too far below 45 hz or so. Speakers that go down to 80 Hz like the JBL should hold you over alright, esp. if you place them closer to the walls. That will actually improve their deep bass response some.

    I don't know of the differences between the two subs you listed, but neither can be that bad. You should really go to a store to demo a really expensive sub, like a Velodyne or M&K, and listen to a few bass-heavy tracks. A simple one of late is the opening scene from Attack of the Clones. The ships flying into Coruscant have monster bass during the fly-bys. Get used that sound and use that to compare against cheaper subwoofers.
     
  10. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    The N24s just don't cut it with music for me, set large or small.
     
  11. BrandonCB

    BrandonCB Extra

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    Do you mean they don't cut it alone? Or don't cut it for music at all, even with a sub? I've heard really good things about the NSP1 set and was actually splurging a little to get them...
     
  12. Phuong

    Phuong Stunt Coordinator

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    Brandon,

    You'll be very happy with the JBLs. John has really nice Paradigms, whose tweeters produce a little better resolutions than the JBL N24s, so it's understandable for him to prefer those over the JBL. And John is far advanced in the home theater hobby, so he's beyond entry level. As for you, the JBL NSP-1 is one of the best affordable ways to get into home theater. Their midrange response is exceptionally flat, remaining very competitive with more expensive speakers. And in the end, once you get a good subwoofer, your worries about speakers choices won't gnaw at you so much.

    Good luck.
     
  13. Phuong

    Phuong Stunt Coordinator

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    Brandon,

    You'll be very happy with the JBLs. John has really nice Paradigms, whose tweeters produce a little better resolutions than the JBL N24s, so it's understandable for him to prefer those over the JBL. And John is far advanced in the home theater hobby, so he's beyond entry level. As for you, the JBL NSP-1 is one of the best affordable ways to get into home theater. Their midrange response is exceptionally flat, remaining very competitive with more expensive speakers. And in the end, once you get a good subwoofer, your worries about speakers choices won't gnaw at you so much.

    Good luck.
     
  14. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    Thanks Phuong.

    I completely agree with Phuong that, for the price, the N24s are tough to beat. A pair of Monitor 5s cost more than the whole NSP-1 set, so it is not fair to compare.

    What I really should say, is: For ME personally, I would not be satisfied with the N24s, even with a sub, for music. I am trying not to mislead anyone into thinking that the N24s are spectacular speakers. They are definitely better than their price would suggest, but they are NOT Harman Audio's (JBL) gift to mankind, and anyone would be crazy buying anything else. I am also trying to say that, for music, I find them lacking in midrange, basically because their low end is not really low enough. I am not trying to say they are bad speakers, just that they don't meet my needs.

    I put them through their paces with a Marantz SR5200 with a SA-WM40. I listened to them set to large and small in a large room. The tweeter is crisp and the midrange is flat, just like all of the JBLs. Being totally honest, I was very impressed with them for the price, and I have no problem recommending them for an inexpensive or starter system at all. I am trying to put it in perspective, and I just don't want people to expect a diamond for the price of glass.

    Hope that makes a little more sense.
     
  15. Phil Iturralde

    Phil Iturralde Screenwriter

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    Brandon - I personally love the JBL N24's playback w/2-channel w/sub music @ normal to above listening levels (SPL 'fast' peaks approx. 93 - 95 dB - Dave Grusin Migration; Bob James Joy Ride, Playin' Hooky; Rippington's Topaz & Black Diamond; Diana Krall The Look of Love, etc.) and fully agree with Phuong recommendation, and to a certain extent, John (Paradigms) Garcia! [​IMG] Hi John!!! - hope it's going well with you!!!
    My JBL NSP1 / AudioSource SW15 (since April 2000) is now @ my vacation house, and I can honestly say that I don't miss my Main HT - JBL S26 / S-Center / SVS when playing my CD Music or watching a blockbuster DVD. Matter-a-fact, my family & friends (that's familiar with my JBL N- & S-Series crystal clear, dynamic SPL Cinema HT Sound because of my once or twice a month Friday NITE DVD Presentations since 1998) say the same thing when they're up @ our vacation house for a little skiing vacation.
    But as far as you know, even though I'm a semi-pro musician, all my accolades about the JBL N- (& S-) Series is just my humble opinion. So, I've documented and posted a few professional reviewers subjective comments below (the experts ... those with unlimited budgets and access to all the A/V toys and speakers) and I will say, .... I personally agree with their assessment ...
    Brent Butterworth reviewed the Northridge Line by writing (an article originally posted @ the now defunct etown.com) ...
    So, add the above subjective comments above (read them over - links provided) to Phuong, John and mine, you'll get a pretty good idea about the JBL N24's.
    FYI: I played the JBL N24's with my SVS 25-31PCi for about a week, right before I moved the NSP1's up to my vacation house and that combination also rocked (Yamaha fixed x-over = 90 Hz). Interestingly, you really had to concentrate to hear the difference between the JBL N24 3/4" Titanium Laminate Dome vs. the JBL S26 1" Pure Titanium Dome tweeters. The NSP1 & SVS 25-31PCi combination is what my brother has now and even though his wife originally thought he didn't require an upgrade, ... I later learned now that she can hear the difference and loves this setup - especially after watching "Lilo & Stitch" (she's Hawaiian)!
    Phil
     
  16. KevinA

    KevinA Agent

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    Just got the dls 10" sub today! Very solid and got a good clean look to it. Hooked everything up and threw in LOTR..... wow! Very nice.. and this is coming from a pair of n24II aw hooked to the sub, hooked to an old sony prologic reciever! Sub was corner loaded with output placed at midway.. crossover set at 80hz on the sub (but when hooked up how i have it doesnt it use some kind of internal crossover??) no calibration or anything that involved considering the equipment i have... that can wait for a new reciever, mains (the aws are really for the surrounds) and a center [​IMG]
    Havnt played any music since getting the sub and since the kids are asleep not an option 'till tommorow... but i thought the n24s by themselves were pretty sharp just lacking real kick which hopefully the sub will fill that in for me! :b
     

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