PSB problem updates...

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Michael__M, Feb 7, 2004.

  1. Michael__M

    Michael__M Stunt Coordinator

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    Earlier this week I asked the members for some help with my system. My new PSB's just were not sounding full enough for me. I received several great responses and some good advice. I tested some of the theories this last week. After playing with my system for a few days, here are my results.

    Yamaha RX-V640, PSB Image 5T's, 9C, Infinity IL10 rears, HSU STF-2

    Placement- there is definitely a sweet spot for placement. If I leave the speakers just in line and beside my big screen, there is very little bass response and the image is muddy. If I bring them all the way in front of the TV, the image is strong but I lose the bass. I found that placing the speaker baffle just if front of the plane of the TV gave me the bast of both worlds. I think getting them too far from the wall killed the bass and too far back blocked the imaging.

    Power- In my large room (20x30x10), power makes a difference. My Yamaha RX-V640 just doesn't have what it takes. I am borrowing my cousin's Denon 5803 and WOW! The extra power ( and other things) make the speakers come alive. I still have them crossed at 60HZ and there is still far better bass response and overall richness than before. I even played movies without the sub and you could feel the effects. Needless to say this is a gigantic leap in quality and price of the receiver, but at least I know it makes a difference. I don't see myself getting the 5803 (read, I don't see my wife letting me get the 5803). I just need to find a happy medium, 4802?

    Sub- The HSU just doesn't do it for me. One interesting thing is that the bass response really got smoother for me if I fired the HSU forward instead of to the floor. The bass sounds punchy, not smooth, unless I aim it at me. I figured this could be due to the second floor of the house not being a good solid base for the sub. Anyway's, it's going back ASAP. I'll probably get an SVS after the new receiver.

    Wiring- OK, I know this is one of those topics but I just couldn't resist. My cousin was over at the house and was listening with me. I wired up everyting on the Denon just like I had it with the Yam ( using my 14g Monster XP). It sounded good. After about an hour, I went to check on my kiddo for a few minutes and came back. When I got back I noticed the staging was thrown off. The solid imaging I had on my Sade track before I left was gone. I stood in front of each speaker and could hear a difference in the sound. My cousin started laughing and told me he had switched on of the speaker wires to his higher end Monster cable he brought ( I don't know the name, it is huge and cost a couple hundred a pair he said). I was arguing with him earlier that speaker wire was all the same. I guess I lost that argument. I can't say it sounded better or worse, that's a personal preference; but it definitely sounded different. The tweets were not as bright, but they sounded more detailed. You could hear things on the good wire that you just couldn't hear on the other. I don't even know if that makes sense.

    Feel free to comment or give me more advice. I am still playing with the placement of the speakers, forward and rear. It's fun to hear the difference in the imaging and surround effects with the placement changes. I'm in love with the 5803. My wife can see the gleam in my eye and I think it scares her. Must..resist..[​IMG] . This post is long enough.

    Enjoying my system, finally

    Michael Moon
     
  2. Nhan_H

    Nhan_H Second Unit

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    Not sure how much your Yammie is rated at, but my old HK AVR20-II measured at 45-50 Watts/channel. It gave my PSB 6Ts all the power it could handle and then some. The volume knob never went beyond the halfway mark. The PSBs are quite efficient, so not much power is required to make these babies sing. My room dimensions are smaller (at 18x22x10), but is opened to other rooms on 3 sides, so the effective area/volume is quite large.

    I didn't read your other thread, but what speaker settings did you have for the yammie? I set mine all to small (I have a Yammie 2200 at the moment, btw). One thing I did notice is that bass was much richer was I set bass to Both (mains and sub), rather than sub alone.

    Have you played around with the sub placement, other than turning it different ways? You probably have, but I just wanted to cover all bases. You might want to set the x-over to 80 hz, instead of 60, since (from what I've been told) you want the x-over to twice the rated low-end frequency of the speakers.

    If you're looking for a huge power supply of a receiver, try your hand on the HK 7200. Various places are selling this puppy for around $850.

    BTW, don't waste your money on those ultra-expensive Monsters, as there are comparable/better cables for less money ;-)
     
  3. TimMc

    TimMc Stunt Coordinator

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    What levels are you listening at? I'm using an even older Yamaha RX-V795A in the den that's also rated @ 85W/ch like your 640. We'd previously used that to drive a variety of electron-happy speaker models in our larger room and didn't notice problems or huge differences w/ much larger power sources (100 & 130W/ch receivers or 250W/ch separate amp).

    If you look into & like the HK7200, OneCall is clearing them out for around ~$789 now. They are very nice units w/ full power & plenty of decent features (no, I don't have one 'cause I'd already bought something else last summer, but I've played w/ one & was quite impressed - 'specially for the $$$).

    As far as the wire stuff - the only suggestion is to make an educated & rational choice there. You might want to check places like Audioholics.com for some of the wiring articles, find the Tom Noussaine postings, etc. and then decide how much you want to "invest" in super special wire. I'd (obviously) prefer to spend more on speakers & stuff that matters (like a 7200 or equiv.) but you have to make your own call on that one...
     
  4. Michael__M

    Michael__M Stunt Coordinator

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    Nhan- I have played with the positioning of the sub as well. The Hsu is just not large enough to move the air as I desire it. I also have some huge room resonances I will have to deal with. As far as the wire, I didn't plan on getting the larger Monster wires. I will look around at my local sources for Kimber or see what else is available. I just found it interesting that I could tell a difference in the wire and just the wire change affected the staging. Any tips on the wiring?

    Tim- I don't listen very loud at all. The Yamaha had almost no impact at all in the lower mid and upper bass region. It seemingly dropped the lower bass altogether. I have tried all combinations of settings to get this thing to push and it just won't do it. The Yam has a fixed 90hz crossover with the sub on. The Yamaha was just very annoying to listen to. Mostly because it would actually not produce (audibly produce for me) some of the notes in the music I was listening to. When I switched to the Denon it was like night and day. Staging is still good but the impact is definitely there. I have the PSB's crossed at 60hz on the Denon and it still produces where the Yam does not. Maybe the Yam is just not a good match to these speakers. Thanks for the tip on the H/K. I was just looking for a good price on that unit this morning.

    Michael
     
  5. Chris Quinn

    Chris Quinn Screenwriter

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    Be aware that you only have 14 days to return anything to CompUSA.
     
  6. Chris Quinn

    Chris Quinn Screenwriter

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    Michael M.

    You have a PM.
     
  7. TimMc

    TimMc Stunt Coordinator

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    Michael - the fixed bass (mis-)management on Yamahas is just one reason ours got relegated to the den. The new ones are supposed to be much better on that. (but now I've got an offer of a sub I could put in the den and that same issue is back. No, it's not a Hsu either. An STF-2 seems great for the money and I like HSU, but it's also a case of getting what you pay for and the room would likely be more than an STF-2 would be happy with.)

    Never had an issue with detail missing w/ our Yamaha - and I compared it w/ several other types of units (including separates). IMO there are just combinations of speakers & electronics that don't mix-&-match well and you may have found another.

    Highly recommend the HK-7200. Played w/ one well after last summer's purchase (darn!) and liked the real power there. I never got a really extended test w/ the 7200 (double darn!) but bass mgt seemed complete.
     
  8. Michael__M

    Michael__M Stunt Coordinator

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    I picked up a 7200 to test last night. It replace the Denon 5803 that my cousin lent me. I had to get that thing out of my house before it really grew on me. The H/K is pretty impressive. It is always fun to listen to the different receivers to get a feel for the different sound from each.
    The Yam 640 was very thin and unimpressive with my set up. The Denon added a fullness to the sound and was very smooth on vocals. The impact from my speakers was there. It was an improvement over the Yam for movies as I could always tell the Yam was missing a few octaves in the middle.
    The H/K is a beast. Bass management seems better but I took the sub back so I can't tell you for sure what is going on. I do know that it sounds like the sub is still there with the addition of the 7200. The sound is nice. It is crystal clear and has a strong presence, expecially on movies. I think I preferred the Denon on vocals as it seemed more subtle but the H/K has a great stage and seems very accurate. On movies the H/K actually sounds a bit better to me. The effects seem more accurate and it puts me into the movies like I've never felt. This is my first HT so I don't know much, but I like it.
     

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