Pedro Martinez just cemented the CY Young Award--for Barry Zito (1 Viewer)

[Brian Perry]

If what I'm reading on ESPN.com is true, Pedro is saying he is done for the year now that he has his 20th win, even though he has one more scheduled start. His manager and GM haven't said if they will force Pedro to pitch.

Pedro is saying that since the Red Sox are out of it they should give other pitchers a look for next year. Well, Pedro, here's a news flash: you are making $13,500,000 this year, which comes to over $430,000 per start. Should Sammy Sosa have hung it up for the year when the Cubs were eliminated in August?

If you're hurt that's one thing, but if not, get out there and give the owner and fans their money's worth!

 

[Mark Romero]

Agree. If he's injured, hang 'em up for the season. If not, pitch.

 

[Joseph S]

Outside of a Anaheim collapse and it is for a Wild Card tie, there is no way Pedro should pitch in that series at all. I've seen enough of the cheap artist crap pulled over the past two years by Hal McRae. Pedro doesn't need to be a part of bean brawls, thrown desks, and whatever other BS Hal McRae has planned for his grand finale this season.
They lost Nomar for about 1.5 years thanks to an injury of this sort, when the Orioles intentionally threw at him and split his extensor digitorum. If the games mean nothing and the opponent is out for revenge, there is no reason to risk major injury when the season is done. Why not give callups a chance to prove something? They've had a bullpen on par with the Devil Rays and they need to find out if any of the new guys have any talent, because they're definitely going to need it next year. The unbalanced schedule with 60 games against Tampa/Tor/Balt is the only reason they are above .500.
As for the CY, I don't think he had any shot. Although he leads in almost every single category in AL and MLB by a wide margin, the writers have always seemed more willing to do the "feel good" thing and give it to someone else since the Bob Welch decision. The strange thing is that Lowe has better numbers than Zito too, is coming off a terrible season, and appears to have zero chance.

Should Sammy Sosa have hung it up for the year when the Cubs were eliminated in August?

He hung it up in July to prepare for the Homerun derby, so I'm not sure he's the guy for this comparison. Maybe Richie Sexson, seeing as the guy looks like he's in serious pain and continues to play night in and night out for a 101 loss team.

 

[Jim_C]

Pedro did say that, Brian. It's pathetic what the modern day athlete has become. From a Boston perspective I can't imagine Ray Bourque or Larry bird ever doing what Pedro is. To top it off, Pedro is also making demands concerning his contract.

He is an incredibly talented pitcher but his attutide is questionable at times.

 

[Dan Hine]

Well, I haven't been following Pedro's attitude to look deeper into it, but could it not be possible that Pedro wants his team to go further next year and thinks it would be a good idea to let a young pitcher get more experience and let the team evaluate potential pluses and shortcomings of the young guys? I'm not necessarily defending him, but couldn't we try to fathom the possibility of Pedro wanting to do what's best for the rest of the team (which as Joseph alluded to, includes Pedro's health for next season)?

 

[Steven K]

Pedro did the same thing last year... he skipped town at the end of the year and went back to the Dominican Republic.

He does this because he knows he can, and no matter what he does, the people in Boston will love him, simply because he is Pedro.

If anything, I think that Derek Lowe deserves the Cy Young Award. Look at what he did... he went from being a crappy finisher last year, to being one of the best starters in the league, and he has a no-hitter and several shutouts this season.

 

[Bill Slack]

Last year Pedro was quite injured and was basically called yellow by his GM so he went out and pitched one very ineffective game where he obviously was hurting.

I would guess he's not feeling his best at this point, though he has a history of being reluctant to admit this or talk about. He did admit, earlier this year, to basically being scared at times of how his arm/shoulder felt (and pitched like that more the first month.)

I'd be happier to see him hang it up for the last start. It's over, let the kids have their playing time, and rest anyone that has even the most minor injuries. If you buy tickets for the last few games of the season and your team isn't in a pennant race (whether good or bad), you know what you're expecting to see.

Yeah, he gets $400k or so her start... and if he went out and pitched a gem in his last game, he would solidify his $500k bonus for winning the Cy Young, which from a numbers stand point, he certainly deserves over Lowe (and defiantly over Zito.)

Pedro is one of the most likable sports figures I've ever seen, but he speaks his mind and isn't a good little soldier for the organization. Up until this year, the organization didn't deserve very much love or respect from it's players or fans, it had been in shambles for quite some time.

Hey, there was once an erroneous rumor that Bird was going to be traded and he said he would have just retired. That's so unfair to the other team or the C's (if the deal went through, or if the deal then fell apart) right? It's all perspective.

So, that's my point of view as a local and avid fan that paid to go to ~20 games this year.

 

[Bill Slack]

Joseph S:
I agree with you on many accounts about the Cy Young award though -- my views are on who deserves it, not who I think will win. Zito seems to be the fav. (with Tejeda at MVP) -- but boy, Pedro and Lowe have both pitched much better.
And Tejada.. Ok, he's having a great season, but Arod, despite his pathetic team is having one of the best seasons of all time. It's not his fault his team sucks. Just as long as Soriano and his .890 OPS and 15 walks don't win, I'll be happy enough though.

 

[Jim_C]

Bill,

I'm sure you've been following the stories in the Boston papers. Pedro said last week if he won his 20th on the next outing he would shut it down. If he was injured and worried about long term health problems don't you think he would have shut it down right away? It seems to me that all he cares about right now is solidifying his chances for the Cy and not some injury. He has been talking for a few weeks about how special the Cy would be for him.

On top of this he calls out the Sox and says if they don't pick up his option he's walking. Given the status of the Sox and their payroll it's a really tough call for them. The last thing they need is Pedro issuing demands for an option that's a year away in the first place. Especially when you consider his recent health problems.

I love Pedro as much as the next guy but sometimes he appears to use his superstar status in inappropriate ways, IMO. I just don't think health is an issue in this case. Do you think he'd be pitching on Friday if he had lost his last start? You bet your ass he would. What does that tell you?

 

[John Thomas]

I think there's a problem in the true essence of what's going on here:

If the games mean nothing

But it DOES mean something. If he's scheduled to start, he needs to start. Just because he's a primadonna doesn't exclude him from doing his job. And if the folks in Boston still support him after all this posturing and basically being a crybaby, then well I suppose they deserve the team they have.

 

[Bill Slack]

That tells me, at this point, the only thing left is just personal achievement. There's a balance between the pride in a job well done, and wanting to shut it down for a myriad of reasons.

And trying to equate any of this to the 'real world' is nuts at this point. They ALL live in a fantasy world that is FAR removed from reality, imo. It's apples and oranges, on almost every level. I mean, he gets like $4000 per pitch, right? So, by the first inning he has made a nice yearly earning for the rest of us...

I'm not saying I'm impressed or exactly ecstatic about what he's said the last few days, but, I can understand, to a degree... and the whole contract thing is just posturing trying to get his point across, I think. And consider how he generally caries himself around this town, there's a reason the fans aren't all over him... He's a great player, enjoying (almost inagruably) a high water mark unequaled over a short period of time. Beyond that, he's a very likable, though not a loquacious, person. He's always plays with the crowd at games between starts, etc.

Now, if somehow the Sox run the table and the Angels go oh-for, and he doesn't start, that's a different story. If by some miracle that happened, I would be quite shocked if he still didn't want to start. If he tried that, I assure you, the fans (including me) would have his head.

Oh, no one is even paying attention to the Sox anymore, with football season having started (talk about a change!) everyone is more interested in that. By god, we're the defending champs, and are apparently ACTUALLY good (hah!), and we have really likable players, that don't even whine about contracts (and football has it much rougher than MLB.)

 

[Seth Paxton]

Who was it that said they always tried to play and play hard because someone in the stands, some kid usually, was there to see that player for the first time, maybe even their first MLB game.

Seems like it was Gehrig, Williams or Dimaggio, but it escapes me right now.


Anyway, THAT is why you go ahead and pitch. Baseball is still entertainment, and that means the paychecks still come from the fans, not your teammates or team.

You are playing for THEM, no matter what other reasons you think exist.

I appreciate the point of looking at other pitchers, but with the Sox still in it at this point (I realize they are basically done barring a miracle) you don't say it. And that's what the minor leagues and spring training are for. We aren't talking about giving a young talent a month long looksee, just one start in a "meaningless" game according to Pedro. Is that really so critical to the development of Sox talent??


Just imagine when Broadway here's of this. Imagine going to The Producers just to find out that Lane and Broderick took the last few shows off to let the young talent have a shot. Maybe the Mick Jagger will let someone else do the singing at a few gigs on this tour, just so they can learn the biz.


Anyway, good for Barry Zito. I wanted him to win the Cy Young anyway.

 

[JustinT]

Pedro is making $430k a start! Seems a little ridiculous when you compare it to Zito's $500k salary...for the entire year.

Yet its still hard to argue that Pedro isn't the most dominant pitcher in the league. I think he will lose some Cy Young votes this year because he has missed a few starts due to injuries, and is now "shutting down" for the season. I think it will be a close race between Zito and Lowe.

Zito seems to be the fav. (with Tejeda at MVP) -- but boy, Pedro and Lowe have both pitched much better.

I disagree, comparing Lowe's numbers to Zito's:

Zito has the better record, 22-5 compared to 21-7
Zito has more strikeouts, 176 compared to 122
Although Zito has given up more hits and walks than Lowe, their era's and baa are very similar (2.74 to 2.45, and .218 to .210)

Keep in mind that Zito has been forced to pitch against a MUCH tougher division (Seattle, Anaheim, and Texas) rather than the very light hitting Toronto, Baltimore, and Tampa Bay (do they even deserve to be in the majors??) clubs.

I'm gonna give the Cy Young to Zito.

 

[Seth Paxton]

BTW, Bill...pathetic team??? As if ARod was surrounded by less offensive talent than Tejada? Yeah, right.

As a Yanks fan, I'm no big market basher, but for Christ sake here, the Rangers have a huge payroll in comparison to the A's and that ain't by accident. They do have some players for that money.

WITHOUT their SS...

Rangers
.265 .765 OPS 165 HR 695 R 640 RBI 53 SB

A's
.251 .761 OPS 167 HR 662 R 614 RBI 37 SB

So you were saying something about the Rangers offensive supporting cast and how Tejada has an easier time putting up numbers with the talent around him...

Tejada might have the pitching to help get the wins, but on the offensive side of the ball he is even more isolated than ARod is, though neither is exactly a one-man team.

Both guys have 1 power player with them, Palmeiro and Chavez, and Palmeiro has the better numbers. Plus, Tejada is the ONLY .300 hitter on his team, while ARod also has IRod batting .313.

ARod does have an edge in fielding, though he's no Vizquel either.

But the point could well be made that ARod has a bit more protection actually and with his team's pitching being so awful other teams would be more likely to pitch to him rather than pitch around him. What's a 2 run HR when you are up 10-2 in the 6th over the Rangers.

Tejada would actually be the guy more likely to get pitched around with less offense around him, much better pitching for his team, and with the team in the pennant race.

ARod also has a slugging PCT that is .170 points higher at Arlington than on the road. Tejada plays in Oakland and has slightly better road numbers actually. The Rangers as a team hit much better in Arlington than the A's do in Oakland.

I won't argue that ARod's power numbers are tough to beat, but I will say that the rest of the argument about ARod having it tougher is flat-out wrong. I don't see a clear cut vote at this point, but normally when 2 players have good cases the lean is toward a player who had to compete in critical games down the stretch (especially when they responded during this period - Tejada hit better in the 2nd half).


In regards to Zito and Lowe (forget Pedro as Lowe is the clear choice on his own team IMO)

2nd half numbers
Zito
14 GS 11-2 95 IP 68 K 1.79 ERA 1.07 WHIP
Lowe
14 GS 9-3 95 IP 48 K 2.57 ERA 1.02 WHIP

Overall
Zito
33 GS 22-5 217 IP 176 K 2.74 ERA 1.13 WHIP
Lowe
31 GS 21-7 213 IP 122 K 2.45 ERA .97 WHIP

So while it's pretty close for the whole season, Zito turing it on in the 2nd half has helped his cause. Which is not to say that Lowe exactly fell apart down the stretch as he was winning games too. It's another close vote, but it's far from a travesty if Lowe doesn't get it.

Down the stretch Lowe lost to NYY (tough loss) and ANA while winning a bad outing against SEA (counters the tough loss). Zito has wins against ANA (bad outing but got win), SEA, and MIN in his last 3 outings and his 2nd half run also included back to back wins over ANA in mid-July (1 ER in 14 IP).

That's where that perception that Zito got his team over the hump when Lowe didn't quite do it comes from. But relying on the "1 guy for 1 game" rule has so much more to do with perception than practicality. Sure Pedro can be dominate, but so can Lowe and Zito. Just because people don't see it that way doesn't mean the numbers are lying.


Anyway, IMO both votes are going to be very close indeed. Personally, I see Soriano getting the MVP vote. I mean he might be 40-40 as a 2B by then not to mention 49 2Bs as well as 204 hits as of today.


But maybe there is something we can all agree upon (or maybe not)...no pitchers for MVP. That really bugs me because what is the Cy Young for then? There is no Best Hitter catagory to match it, except MVP itself.

Plus, a SP can win you 20-25 games at best, but an everyday player can help you win 150+ times and probably has a lot to do with at least 30-40 wins.

 

[Joseph S]

There is no Best Hitter catagory to match it, except MVP itself.

Plus, a SP can win you 20-25 games at best, but an everyday player can help you win 150+ times and probably has a lot to do with at least 30-40 wins.

Isn't that what the Hank Aaron award is for?

The MVP is the MVP, and whether it is a pitcher or batter shouldn't have any impact at all. If there isn't a batter more valuable to his team, then tough luck for him. A pitcher can win you games not only in which he starts but those that precede and follow. The bullpen can be overused the night before, knowing it won't be needed for at least a day and a half.

A star pitcher can have a major effect on not only his 30 starts but also the 30 before him and the 60 after him. A position player like ARod can't even make that level of an impact on his team in 150+ games simply because he can't field from shortstop all the hanging curveballs that the Texas staff throws. He could drive in 200 and it still wouldn't be enough to make up for that inept staff. He has 4-6 shots a game at the plate and maybe 5-10 in the field. Great pitching and mediocre hitting goes a lot further than terrible pitching and great hitting. There are only so many 10-8 games to win a year. Team Arod up with a decent starting staff and suddenly those numbers are far more "valuable."

The thing that is a shame is that those writers which claim to never vote for a pitcher(or catcher),George King, always seem to give the hometown pitcher the vote. Some of the credentials should be verified for voting. The above named fool, claimed he didn't vote for either Pedro or Ivan Rodriguez because he was in a hurricane THE WEEK AFTER he voted. He'll probably pick Karsay over Zito, Pedro, and Lowe this year.

Derek Lowe has been better than the 9-3 record since the break. The bullpen gave away a 4 run 9th inning lead against Andy Sheets and Tampa Bay Devil Rays in which he pitched 7 shutout innings. They then blew a 2-1 lead in the 8th,9th and 10th against Texas. Using strikeouts to compare Lowe is not a measure of much. He's a sinker ball picther. You judge his success by the number of fly balls to ground balls not strike outs. He also threw one no-hitter this year and came close on a couple of other occasions.

 

[Jim_C]

Bill Slack,
I can see where you're coming from.
Go Pats!