Brae
Supporting Actor
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 509
Jamey F, from your #8 post ...
Q: 2) Which has the best/cleanest amplifiers?
A: I do not think anyone on this forum, nor AVS, has had both AVR products in a lab with professional equipment to discern the cleanliness of the amplifier section. Nor do I think any consumers have the ability to determine if an unclean sound is coming from the amp section of an integrated receiver vs. a bad/poor transport layer where the processor feeds into the amplifier. Still than I would call caution and make sure those reporting have ruled out speaker problems, cabling, interference, etc. Finally, make sure you get your own hearing checked, and those you are relying upon when you call upon their experiences, recommendations, and evaluation. I freely admit my hearing isn't the best out there, I do not own laboratory-grade testing equipment, nor have quarters for conducting a proper evaluation. How about the rest of you?
Q: 3) Which implements multi room the best with possible multiple speakers running of only 2 channels. Denon seems to handle higher ohm loads better.
A: What the heck are you talking about? Are you saying that if Pioneer is incapable or will perform more poorly when used in conjunction with speaker loads having a higher nominal impedance rating? Somehow I would think any amplifier would have an easier time driving speaker loads with higher impedance values. Can you cite one publication, reference, etc. where this is a real concern? I am always open to learning new things, but this one is a first for me.
Q: 4) Which has the best upgrade paths to a future surround format.
A: I was not under the impression that these two mid-fi products were ungradable. Still, the current online pricing of these products is around $800, some +45% off their list price. Considering the depreciation factor they will be worth less than half their retail list in 18 months. In that time the cost of replacing seems alarming rediculous to be concerned about. Now, if you were looking at those Denon and Pioneer AVR products going for +$2,000 ...
Q: 5) Does either offer pre-ins for all/any channels?
A: This question, along with your first question can be answered by simply reading the PDF manuals which are freely available to every sole on the planet--including yours. I see that you are new to HTF, and probably other forums of common ilk, please do some legwork as you will get great satisfaction at getting information without persuasion--including my persuasion.
Q: 6) Which would be the best pre/pro if I upgraded to an outboard amplifier like a parasound 1205 for instance?
A: IMHO, the 45TX's MCACC makes getting your feet wet in the audio world something a lot easier and more user-friendly. YMMV.
Q: 7) Does either offer an easier upgrade to the receiver itself (updates to future surround formats or upgrades to receiver functions)?
A: I cannot speak for the Denon product line as I have not inquired myself. I have had one authorized Elite dealer tell me that Pioneer is considering making available upgrades for non-'i'-link AVR products so they can be capable of using Pioneer's next generation of DV players. I would urge you to do your research and maybe pick up a telephone, write a letter, spawn an email to both for this aspect of the product consideration.
Not one single integrated receiver or combination pre-pro and amp will be the sole deciding factor on how sound is produce to your ears. The very room the speakers are in, the source material, the source player, the cabling, the power conditioning, the overall environment (can we say moode lighting?), you dang hearing abilities, your mood all play into the overall equation as to how something will be presented to your ears, and interpreted by your brain.
Making the assumption that a receiver or pre-pro is in itself the single deciding factor in the audio game is naive, and one needs to understand that right from the beginning. A receiver or pre-pro that you fall in love with can be taken into another room and disappoint you. Changing speakers can also have similar or disimlar effects.
From your #10 post ...
The 'shutdown' experiences have been confirmed to be a design feature. I have shutdown all Elite receivers, and I learned this evening that a friend shutdown his Denon. I would rather have the $800 integrated receiver shut itself off that deliver clipping to my $3500 speaker, but you may have an opposing desire to destroy your speaker (good excuse to buy new ones!).
BTW, and interesting experience I had with a 3802 was when I was at HiFi Lies, hehe, and tried to get it to shut itself off. We cranked up the unit well pass SPL levels I had to conduct to shut off the Elites. We even got a little concerned that the Denon was going well beyond where we thought it should, so we shorted the front-left main loudspeaker. Still played on, though. This is where I got concerned, though, as distortion started to become present (albeit the soudn was also starting to hurt my ears). Yet, the unit would not shut itself off. We finally cringed and turned up the volume some more and finally the 3802 kicked off with a nice hot chassis to boot.
Was I impressed? No. That unit probably damaged some of those speakers that will ultimately wind up in the hands of some unsuspecting customer when their replacement models come in. Oh well, to each his own.
On your #12 post ...
Good job! I hope you get everything you expect to out of your purchase. Did you get a good deal? Hope so. Please keep us informed of any new information you learn about the 3803, and any problems, too.
BTW, I suppose the 3803 is the perfect low-end product for someone looking for an integrated receiver product to also handle the task of video cross-conversion. Still, converting crap (composite) or semi-crap (s-video) to an acceptable video stream will not make up for loss content, information that was never delivered in the first place, and certainly not help in any other aspect of the video path.
Still, if it means you only have to have one 3-conductor video cable going to your display and it makes the world, cheers! I think I will stick to dedicated paths for video and not expect the AVR to handle video alterations when one should be eliminating components from the video path, and not adding them.
Brian, on your #14 post ...
I would rather have my cheapo integrated receiver die a sudden death than my more expensive speakers. Since the Elite AVR's have the design feature to 'protect' the amplified outputs from clipping I would think of this as a good thing, as opposed to delivering clipped amplification. Of course, destrying speakers is someone else's gig and not mine. Happy clipping, man. :b
Mike Up on your #19 post ...
Q: 2) Which has the best/cleanest amplifiers?
A: I do not think anyone on this forum, nor AVS, has had both AVR products in a lab with professional equipment to discern the cleanliness of the amplifier section. Nor do I think any consumers have the ability to determine if an unclean sound is coming from the amp section of an integrated receiver vs. a bad/poor transport layer where the processor feeds into the amplifier. Still than I would call caution and make sure those reporting have ruled out speaker problems, cabling, interference, etc. Finally, make sure you get your own hearing checked, and those you are relying upon when you call upon their experiences, recommendations, and evaluation. I freely admit my hearing isn't the best out there, I do not own laboratory-grade testing equipment, nor have quarters for conducting a proper evaluation. How about the rest of you?
Q: 3) Which implements multi room the best with possible multiple speakers running of only 2 channels. Denon seems to handle higher ohm loads better.
A: What the heck are you talking about? Are you saying that if Pioneer is incapable or will perform more poorly when used in conjunction with speaker loads having a higher nominal impedance rating? Somehow I would think any amplifier would have an easier time driving speaker loads with higher impedance values. Can you cite one publication, reference, etc. where this is a real concern? I am always open to learning new things, but this one is a first for me.
Q: 4) Which has the best upgrade paths to a future surround format.
A: I was not under the impression that these two mid-fi products were ungradable. Still, the current online pricing of these products is around $800, some +45% off their list price. Considering the depreciation factor they will be worth less than half their retail list in 18 months. In that time the cost of replacing seems alarming rediculous to be concerned about. Now, if you were looking at those Denon and Pioneer AVR products going for +$2,000 ...
Q: 5) Does either offer pre-ins for all/any channels?
A: This question, along with your first question can be answered by simply reading the PDF manuals which are freely available to every sole on the planet--including yours. I see that you are new to HTF, and probably other forums of common ilk, please do some legwork as you will get great satisfaction at getting information without persuasion--including my persuasion.
Q: 6) Which would be the best pre/pro if I upgraded to an outboard amplifier like a parasound 1205 for instance?
A: IMHO, the 45TX's MCACC makes getting your feet wet in the audio world something a lot easier and more user-friendly. YMMV.
Q: 7) Does either offer an easier upgrade to the receiver itself (updates to future surround formats or upgrades to receiver functions)?
A: I cannot speak for the Denon product line as I have not inquired myself. I have had one authorized Elite dealer tell me that Pioneer is considering making available upgrades for non-'i'-link AVR products so they can be capable of using Pioneer's next generation of DV players. I would urge you to do your research and maybe pick up a telephone, write a letter, spawn an email to both for this aspect of the product consideration.
Not one single integrated receiver or combination pre-pro and amp will be the sole deciding factor on how sound is produce to your ears. The very room the speakers are in, the source material, the source player, the cabling, the power conditioning, the overall environment (can we say moode lighting?), you dang hearing abilities, your mood all play into the overall equation as to how something will be presented to your ears, and interpreted by your brain.
Making the assumption that a receiver or pre-pro is in itself the single deciding factor in the audio game is naive, and one needs to understand that right from the beginning. A receiver or pre-pro that you fall in love with can be taken into another room and disappoint you. Changing speakers can also have similar or disimlar effects.
From your #10 post ...
The 'shutdown' experiences have been confirmed to be a design feature. I have shutdown all Elite receivers, and I learned this evening that a friend shutdown his Denon. I would rather have the $800 integrated receiver shut itself off that deliver clipping to my $3500 speaker, but you may have an opposing desire to destroy your speaker (good excuse to buy new ones!).
BTW, and interesting experience I had with a 3802 was when I was at HiFi Lies, hehe, and tried to get it to shut itself off. We cranked up the unit well pass SPL levels I had to conduct to shut off the Elites. We even got a little concerned that the Denon was going well beyond where we thought it should, so we shorted the front-left main loudspeaker. Still played on, though. This is where I got concerned, though, as distortion started to become present (albeit the soudn was also starting to hurt my ears). Yet, the unit would not shut itself off. We finally cringed and turned up the volume some more and finally the 3802 kicked off with a nice hot chassis to boot.
Was I impressed? No. That unit probably damaged some of those speakers that will ultimately wind up in the hands of some unsuspecting customer when their replacement models come in. Oh well, to each his own.
On your #12 post ...
Good job! I hope you get everything you expect to out of your purchase. Did you get a good deal? Hope so. Please keep us informed of any new information you learn about the 3803, and any problems, too.
BTW, I suppose the 3803 is the perfect low-end product for someone looking for an integrated receiver product to also handle the task of video cross-conversion. Still, converting crap (composite) or semi-crap (s-video) to an acceptable video stream will not make up for loss content, information that was never delivered in the first place, and certainly not help in any other aspect of the video path.
Still, if it means you only have to have one 3-conductor video cable going to your display and it makes the world, cheers! I think I will stick to dedicated paths for video and not expect the AVR to handle video alterations when one should be eliminating components from the video path, and not adding them.
Brian, on your #14 post ...
I would rather have my cheapo integrated receiver die a sudden death than my more expensive speakers. Since the Elite AVR's have the design feature to 'protect' the amplified outputs from clipping I would think of this as a good thing, as opposed to delivering clipped amplification. Of course, destrying speakers is someone else's gig and not mine. Happy clipping, man. :b
Mike Up on your #19 post ...
