Need help please.....Denon 3803/Pioneer 45 (1 Viewer)

[Gregg Brent]

I've been debating these two receivers also. I like the look and MCACC of 45tx but the up conversion of the 3803 has me leaning towards that. I'll have a video projector ceiling-mounted and the thought of one cable component cable up to it pleases me. I'll have DVD, Laser, VHS and HD cable connected to receiver.

My question is how would someone (like me) manually perform the same functions that MCACC does on the 3803? I assume you only have to do this once. I have an odd shape room I"m sure it would help.

Thanks.

 

[MikeRP]

Gregg:

No matter how hard you try you won't best the MCACC.

I don't think you can even come close to it.

Now I know MikeUp won't agree but we are having fun talking about the disagreement!

Hope you have a nice New Year Mike!

But, no doubt the Denon will sound very good.

Good luck on your decision.

Mike

 

[Jamey F]

Gregg from what I have learned about the 3803, I don't think you even have the manual ability to do what the MCACC can do. Namely, the 3803 doesn't have 5 band EQ's on each channel. The delay and SPL can be set manually. If you have odd spaces in your room that may change the tonal characteristics of a speaker, MCACC should be able to compensate for that much better than the 3803 can. My room now, and any that I would build in my next house won't have such problems. While I believe MCACC would be beneficial to me, the delay and SPL are much more important to me. You can change those settings manually on the Denon.

 

[Brae]

I like the look and MCACC of 45tx but the up conversion of the 3803 has me leaning towards that.

Greg, you may want to start looking at dedicated video processors if you are that serious regarding basing your final decision of your receiver choice.

I suppose I always took it for granted that my RPTV was capable of deinterlacing and scaling NTSC 480i material to something a little more please and never really considered this a aspect to be a must-find feature on an integrated receiver or pre-pro product. I suppose this is also why I find the upper lines of even the Elites and Denon's to not be worth their price.

A line double can start at $500 and a fairly decent video processor at $1500, which will go well beyond any capability of any $1500 (or $2500) AVR/pre-pro product.

Also, trying to mimic the MCACC program will undoubtedly take a lot of research, understanding of the fundamentals, and practice, practice, practice. And because this is something I did not wish to labor on, I sought an easier solution. When I learned about MCACC, I asked a few installers about it. Those that installed Elite products stated that it worked and they liked it. I was surprised. I thought it was gimmicky. But, by golly, it does work.

The best part of the MCACC is that I can use it to do a rough-draft or a final interpretation of the environment in question. I can alter the MCACC-generated values to to my liking and not necessarily be left at some 'model' (Dolby, DTS, THX, etc.), save those settings, and play some more. Better yet, I can do this for a variety of situations. And the multiband EQ is just the icing on the cake.

With this all in mind, I need not 'up-conversion' as I will, in the end, have a dedicated video processor to do a proper job as its deigned and built by a company that understands video processing a lot better than Denon or Pioneer (which explains why neither of them are in the dedicated video processing market).

 

[Brae]

The same can be said of using dedicated EQ and equipment, instead of the MCACC feature

Yes, and when it becomes affordable in my home for such a method that is also automated (as in the case with MCACC) I will surely jump in. Unfortunately, no dealer in Atlanta rents any test equipment, let alone AV products. Thus, it is not an option to buy the necessary non-automated equipment to setup my system.
Also, one must realize that the MCACC can be used in conjunction with the preouts, too. This effective turns the AVR into an inexpensive, yet well-endowed, pre-pro with an automated setup feature. Again, kudos! BTW, notice how I am advocating but not denouncing its competitors, heehee.

 

[Gregg Brent]

I wasn't really thinking about line doublers or scalers... I was more concerned with cables.

I want to ceiling-mount a DLP projector and to have one cable connected to it (it's about 25 feet of component cable I"ll need).

With the various inputs I have (component, composite and Svideo) I was hoping the Denon would allow me a nice clean simple solution of one component connection instead of three various connections and cables.

If this isn't possible, I'll get the 45tx and have that cable mess to deal with.

 

[Brae]

A dedicated video processor would accomodate multiple inputs (signals) and output a uniform signal via one path. This is another added benefit of a dedicated video processor aside from scaling/deinterlacing.

 

[Jamey F]

I finally settled on the 3803. I guess settle isn't exactly the best word to describe spending just under $1000 I went back and forth on the 45's MCACC and the 3803's video upconversion. I have my speakers where they are going to be, so the manual testing I will have to do won't be done but once every great while. I know the MCACC is probably better than I can do manually with the 3803, but both units will be a good step up from a Yamaha 992 (no DTS). Botht he MCACC and the video upconversion seem to attract comments with pluses and minuses. I know I will use the upconversion. The supposedly better DAC's in 3803 seemed to weigh a little bit there at the end with me thinking of going with an external amp maybe in a year or so. From what I've read, the 3803 has a lot of the same parts used in their top end 5803. It lacks the THX processing and more powerful amps (which I can upgrade to an external later).
I look at it this way...The Denon 3803 is just about exactly what I was looking for. It offers about everything I would have thought of to begin with and then some. It doesn't offer a feature I didn't know existed when I started. After all, Denon was the brand that had the receiver I wanted when I bought my Yamaha. I couldn't afford the $1000 then. I can't be disapointed in that. I'll give my opinion on my choice when it arrives, hopefully, Friday.
Thanks to all that weighed in. I really did read and appreciate everyone's input. Have a Happy New Year while I'm dishin' out the mushy stuff.

 

[Steve Owen]

I also went ahead and bought a Denon 3803 yesterday. I paid $1019 from Natural Sound in Framingham, MA. They extended the warranty for a year and have a decent trade-up policy (bring it back within 3 years, buy something for 2x the price, and get a full refund... sounds like a nice way to get separates in a couple years). Tweeter, Etc. in Framingham was able to match the price, but they couldn't match the warranty or trade-up policy. At Natural Sound, I also listened to last year's Marantz SR7200 (they didn't have the 7300 out yet) and I found that amplifier to be very anemic compared to the 3803.

I've only played with it for a couple of hours, but so far I'm very happy with what I'm hearing/seeing. The video switching is a noticable improvement over my previous receiver (Marantz SR870), and the upconversion to s-video from composite works flawlessly. I'm still messing around with the bass management, but I think "LFE+Main" with a 80Hz crossover is going to work best in my setup.

The one thing that I -really- don't like (but that I'm trying to get used to) is the "logarithmic" volume control. If you hold your finger in the volume up or down button, the change in volume accelerates RAPIDLY. So instead of holding down the button and releasing it when I get to the desired volume, I have to tap the button over and over again so that the steps are small and the volume doesn't get rediculously loud very quickly. Hopefully there's some way I can change that behavior, but I haven't found it in the manual yet.

Oh, and the phono section (yes, it has one!!!) isn't half bad. I have to do some more comparisons between in and my outboard phono premap (PRO-JECT Audio Systems "The Phono Box"), but on the bit of listening I did last night, it sounded OK.

I'll post more after I have a chance to listen and explore a bit more. But my initial impressions are a big thumbs up (mitigated somewhat only by the volume control issue).

-Steve

 

[Michael Mathius]

Steve:

congrats on you new purchase. I've been enjoying mine in a 5.1 setup for the past month but tonight I will add two more speakers for 7.1.

 

[Michael Mathius]

double post

 

[Jamey F]

Steve, congrats. You mention flawless composite to S-video, but no mention of s-video or composite to component. As far as the volume, it won't be a problem for me. I tap the volume on my remote like you describe right now on my Yammy 992. I'm not sure if it is logrithmic like you describe, but it does go up fairly fast. That trade up policy rocks if you are going to upgrade (as I am thinkin' of in about 18 months - 2 years). It gives you a good amount of time to decide. I would have loved to get mine locally, but I had one local dealer (an hour away) with them in stock, and he only has two in stock. He wanted to sell them with systems and not by themselves. He did offer to take $50 off if I just wanted the receiver, but that's $1149 + 8% tax in that town and well more than the $999 I paid. The 2 year manufacturer's warranty + benefits from by Amex Business Gold card should do nicely.

 

[Steve Owen]

but no mention of s-video or composite to component

Sorry, but my TV (Panasonic CT-32SF36 32") does not have component inputs, so I can't comment.

When I went out to my local dealer(s) yesterday, I honestly wasn't thinking I was going to come home with one. I know they're hot items and I figured that at best they'd give me $40 - $50 off of MSRP. If that was the case, I think I'd take the "no warranty" risk and get one online for $850. But for $180 off MSRP (plus the upgrade policy) I figured it was as good of a deal as I was going to get. I would rather have gone to tax-free New Hampshire, but ultimately the extra 5% I paid in tax was worth it to have bought it from a dealer that's only 15 miles from home.

-Steve

 

[Brae]

I've done extensive searches for 45TX threads. I found your fingerprint on nearly every thread. I guess I didn't realize how much passion you have for this receiver. For this reason, I'm ending my participation on this thread. This discussion is stagnant and isn't going anywhere.

Please do not mix emotions into this. I have a strong interest in the product I bought, which is the VSX-45TX. I do not think I am doing anything more or less than any other 45TX or 3803 owner, or someone considering buying one or both of them. If you feel that one should not participate, actively, then where would we all get feedback from, the salespeople?

 

[Steve Schaffer]

I did not suffer a lack of bass at the 63hz level with the speakers set to large per MCACC. To the extent that I don't think those speakers do as well below 63hz than as my sub, it could be said that the MCACC made a mistake, but since it's lowest equalizer band is 63hz, and at that frequency I didn't suffer any bass loss, it did as well as could be expected.

It was a simple matter to reset my speakers manually to Large, and the only MCACC setting affected was the one for 63hz band.

The fact remains that my system is better balanced and more accurate according to the sweeps on AVIA than I was ever able to accomplish manually with my "old" Sony VS333es, which had pretty much the same capabilities as the Denon 3803, if not more, with regard to calibration versatility.

 

[David Judah]

...I'm ending my participation on this thread. This discussion is stagnant and isn't going anywhere.

Perhaps that's a good idea, since you don't have any experience with MCACC and you are trying to convince those who have used it and found it to be beneficial that it shouldn't be beneficial.

DJ

 

[Jamey F]

I don't take that from his posts. I believe he is just trying to show what should be the limitation with this technology, and it's not going to be a cure all. He stated he would change his opinion if there was test data to show a 5 band EQ can make up for differences in room acoustics like many are claiming. To this I can not say I disagree with him, but I can not disagree with the number of people saying MCACC can set up there system as well or better than can be done manually. Perhaps there is some middle ground between the arguements that would allow for the improvement in room accoustics with MCACC but not correction of them. I haven't listened to a 45tx so I can't give an informed opinion either way.
It's been stated before, one of major deciding factors in getting the 45tx or the 3803 is whether you want MCACC or video upconversion. There are some other issues that swayed me towards the 3803, but ultimately I had to decide the MCACC was unnessesary not unwanted in order to choose against it.

 

[Brae]

FYI, MCACC is limited to 5-bands on my 45TX, but this is not the case for all Elite receivers--some have nine bands. I have never sought to sway people away from another receiver product, but simply chose to point out certain key features found on the product I am most familiar with and through my personal experiences.
No, MCACC is not the last thing said in receiverdom, but for some people in less then amicable living environment that don't wish to spend houses in their environment trying to get good sound from a calibrated system the MCACC feature is an excellent option--but then again so isn't hiring a professional to do your calibrations for you.
Cheers, and its 2003!

 

[Jamey F]

I'll drink to that. Hope everyones year started out well.

 

[David Judah]

He stated he would change his opinion if there was test data to show a 5 band EQ can make up for differences in room acoustics like many are claiming.

It's really easy to test. The MCACC can be disabled with a press of a button. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, and as many owners have found, the MCACC is quite effective in real rooms. It won't solve every problem(no one in this thread claimed that it would), but the bottom line is that it does offer an improvement.

We all choose products for a variety of reasons. For instance, the criteria that made you decide on the 3803 over the 45TX were non-issues for me--we all have different priorities.

What doesn't help though, is when members make a case for one product by denigrating another, especially without experience with the product or comparing it to older models.

In the end, IMO, they are both great receivers in their price range, so either way a prospective buyer won't lose(I have used both).

DJ