My 2 cents worth on “Brothers Grimm” (1 Viewer)

[OliverK]

Pan and scan from YouTube
View attachment 122091

Letterboxed Trailer from YouTube
View attachment 122089

I think that the cap below shows slightly better colors and there is also a bit more picture information on the sides?
So not sure if upgrading from the LD will be really worth it.

 

[DP 70]

I see the screening on the 23rd has 7.1 sound, I hope that transfers to the Blu Ray.

 

[benbess]

It's amazing that this is actually coming to blu-ray, fully restored from the original camera negatives. As a fan of the films of George Pal since I was a little kid in the 1970s, many thanks to all those who never gave up and kept working on this project.

 

[Dennis Gallagher]

Will be shown at MoMA NYC 1/23/22 4:30pm.

I really wanted to go to this showing, but now doesn't seem to be the time to risk the train travel getting there and the prolonged time in the theater. Hopefully the program introductions will be recorded for those who can't attend - and hopefully also I'll get to someday thank in person Dave Strohmaier and his most amazing crew who've done so much in support of Cinerama.

 

[Interdimensional]

Two points I would like to express before this comes out:

1) It seems that some sort of digital motion-tweening or motion-blurring effect has been applied to the puppetoon sequence, apparently to smooth out the stop-motion animation. Presumably this may have been applied to the dragon sequence also. To my knowledge this has not been applied on previous stop-motion releases of the era. Not Harryhausen, and not on Jack the Giant Slayer, which was largely by the same creative team that contributed effects to Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm.

I imagine it may have been felt that on the giant Cinerama screen, any wobbles or jitters in the motion would detract from the overall film. For many audience members, that may be the case. However, I would hope that the intact stop-motion sequences without this effect will be included on the disc, although perhaps things are already finalized.

2) I understand that some special features have been created for this release. I was wondering if Jim Danforth had been approached. He animated the entire Dragon sequence, and at least one part of the Elf sequence. Danforth was incredibly young when he animated this sequence. You will not find a more perceptive and insightful individual. Although, again, I accept that it may be too late for additions.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

Two points I would like to express before this comes out:

1) It seems that some sort of digital motion-tweening or motion-blurring effect has been applied to the puppetoon sequence, apparently to smooth out the stop-motion animation. Presumably this may have been applied to the dragon sequence also. To my knowledge this has not been applied on previous stop-motion releases of the era. Not Harryhausen, and not on Jack the Giant Slayer, which was largely by the same creative team that contributed effects to Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm.

I imagine it may have been felt that on the giant Cinerama screen, any wobbles or jitters in the motion would detract from the overall film. For many audience members, that may be the case. However, I would hope that the intact stop-motion sequences without this effect will be included on the disc, although perhaps things are already finalized.

2) I understand that some special features have been created for this release. I was wondering if Jim Danforth had been approached. He animated the entire Dragon sequence, and at least one part of the Elf sequence. Danforth was incredibly young when he animated this sequence. You will not find a more perceptive and insightful individual. Although, again, I accept that it may be too late for additions.

In response:
These would largely be questions for Dave Strohmaier, as he has been spearheading the restoration and can tell us exactly what's involved. I'm not seeing any motion smoothing or in-betweening. It definitely doesn't look like other motion blurring experiments like Jim Danforth's work on When Dinosaurs Rules the Earth, or Phil Tippett's GoMotion work on Dragonslayer, E.T. and Return of the Jedi.

This is a comparatively low-budget project, so I don't knonw if Danforth has been approached. He would definitely be a "get", given his extensive effects work history.

 

[nara]

AFAIK the subject of apparent motion blurring has been addressed and debunked earlier in this very long thread.

 

[Paul Penna]

Two points I would like to express before this comes out:

1) It seems that some sort of digital motion-tweening or motion-blurring effect has been applied to the puppetoon sequence, apparently to smooth out the stop-motion animation. Presumably this may have been applied to the dragon sequence also. To my knowledge this has not been applied on previous stop-motion releases of the era. Not Harryhausen, and not on Jack the Giant Slayer, which was largely by the same creative team that contributed effects to Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm.

In response:
These would largely be questions for Dave Strohmaier, as he has been spearheading the restoration and can tell us exactly what's involved. I'm not seeing any motion smoothing or in-betweening. It definitely doesn't look like other motion blurring experiments like Jim Danforth's work on When Dinosaurs Rules the Earth, or Phil Tippett's GoMotion work on Dragonslayer, E.T. and Return of the Jedi.

David Strohmaier addressed such issues in this post.

 

[Interdimensional]

This is a comparatively low-budget project, so I don't knonw if Danforth has been approached. He would definitely be a "get", given his extensive effects work history.

I would think there are few surviving members of the cast and crew who could speak more authoritatively .

AFAIK the subject of apparent motion blurring has been addressed and debunked earlier in this very long thread.

I'm not convinced that it has:

And YES we had to introduce some motion blur, frame interpolation, such as in the puppetoons and the dragon cave scene and many others. Believe me you would have plenty to pick on if we had not done so. I don't know about the Monday morning quarterback pixel picker types but I watch movies at 24fps and will continue to do so on any restorations done by me or anyone else.

Well I hate to be disagreeable, but I dispute the notion that adding motion blur to vintage stop-motion is a case of 'had to". Maybe that's going to be an unpopular opinion around here, given the extensive and laudable work involved in the restoration overall. That's just what puppetoon and stop-motion of the day looked like, but do what you will with the restoration, to me it would be a misrepresentation of the animator's art to not include the original. That's not a camera issue or a wear and tear issue.

Jack the Giant Killer has always had more inconsistency to its animation and effects, but that restoration looks incredible, with no artificial blurring or smoothing, and to my eyes, perfectly acceptable. Some of the stop-motion was even on 2s. Would it be possible to interpolate new frames so 12fps animation can playback with 24fps motion? Sure. Would it be an honest representation of the film as they made it? No.

 

[DP 70]

I am very much looking forward to this Blu Ray, thanks again David for all your hard work.

 

[OliverK]

I would think there are few surviving members of the cast and crew who could speak more authoritatively .



I'm not convinced that it has:



Well I hate to be disagreeable, but I dispute the notion that adding motion blur to vintage stop-motion is a case of 'had to". Maybe that's going to be an unpopular opinion around here, given the extensive and laudable work involved in the restoration overall. That's just what puppetoon and stop-motion of the day looked like, but do what you will with the restoration, to me it would be a misrepresentation of the animator's art to not include the original. That's not a camera issue or a wear and tear issue.

Jack the Giant Killer has always had more inconsistency to its animation and effects, but that restoration looks incredible, with no artificial blurring or smoothing, and to my eyes, perfectly acceptable. Some of the stop-motion was even on 2s. Would it be possible to interpolate new frames so 12fps animation can playback with 24fps motion? Sure. Would it be an honest representation of the film as they made it? No.

We do not get to pick and choose, especially not for such a project.

From what I recall the original data is still there if somebody gets the greenlight for another release in the future. Until then it is what it is and from what I can see most buyers will be very happy with this release.

 

[Strohmaier]

Some answers to recent questions

Original data is still there is a correct statement. As part of this restoration we created a 6K un touched composite widescreen master of the show for any future work - which I can only assume will never take place. This is just what any good restorationist would do, preserve for the future. We also preserved the raw scans of the 1950s travelogues at the Library of Congress. Rest assured all is protected for any future efforts whatever they may be. Meanwhile we want to see the move the best way we can with the tools we have.

Included in the release is a detailed 40-minute documentary of how this film was digitally restored called “Rescuing A Fantasy Classic” by documentarian Harrison Engle. If you remember the documentary “Obsessed with Vertigo” about its restoration then you might recall it was from director Harrison Engle.

On the subject of stop motion animation, yes we considered talking with Jim Danforth but had several reasons why we could not due to scheduling, budget and otherwise.

For those who think we have done any kind of disservice to the stop motion animation sequences they might consider that we corrected many set lighting mishaps that would radically “blink” on and off causing shadows and portions of the set lighting to change very noticeably. Probably due to lamps going out on the set including rim lights and side lights, all certainly inadvertent accidents. These were frankly, in our opinion, somewhat embarrassing to the few brave animators who worked on such a short 4-month schedule to create their magic. Damage often worked its way into the sets and the characters themselves including shadows. I remember several nights working on replacing a few arms and legs essentially animating a few frames as other clean up techniques simply didn’t work as we had hoped or they called too much attention to the problem.

If someone wants to do a dissertation of our corrections of these original inadvertent mistakes, they only have to look at the 35mm scope version and compare for themselves, it’s as plain as day. If I were one of the animators, (and yes recently one of them has actually seen these fixes), they would (and are) in fact grateful that we corrected those areas. Thus one could say there is no mis representation of anyone’s work here.

For those who may still have animation concerns by all mean continue to disagree, but remember you were not here with us as we agonized over every frame and had to make determinations on how to make the film look as best as possible.

 

[ahollis]

Thanks for you and your teams hard work Mr. Strohmaier. I looking forward with great relish to see this.

 

[Jim*Tod]

Given huge effort it has taken for Mr. Strohmaier to restore these films I would tend to trust his judgement on decisions made during the process. Without him I doubt these films would ever have been available in decent form much less the remarkable versions we now have. I am looking forward to BROTHERS GRIMM when it comes out.

 

[mark brown]

Can’t wait to see what project David takes on next!

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I remember when we used to wait for the disc to actually come out before we looked to criticize it.

Very excited to see this restoration! At the very least, it will be leaps and bounds better than anything that’s publicly available now.

 

[battlebeast]

Some answers to recent questions

Original data is still there is a correct statement. As part of this restoration we created a 6K un touched composite widescreen master of the show for any future work - which I can only assume will never take place. This is just what any good restorationist would do, preserve for the future. We also preserved the raw scans of the 1950s travelogues at the Library of Congress. Rest assured all is protected for any future efforts whatever they may be. Meanwhile we want to see the move the best way we can with the tools we have.

Included in the release is a detailed 40-minute documentary of how this film was digitally restored called “Rescuing A Fantasy Classic” by documentarian Harrison Engle. If you remember the documentary “Obsessed with Vertigo” about its restoration then you might recall it was from director Harrison Engle.

On the subject of stop motion animation, yes we considered talking with Jim Danforth but had several reasons why we could not due to scheduling, budget and otherwise.

For those who think we have done any kind of disservice to the stop motion animation sequences they might consider that we corrected many set lighting mishaps that would radically “blink” on and off causing shadows and portions of the set lighting to change very noticeably. Probably due to lamps going out on the set including rim lights and side lights, all certainly inadvertent accidents. These were frankly, in our opinion, somewhat embarrassing to the few brave animators who worked on such a short 4-month schedule to create their magic. Damage often worked its way into the sets and the characters themselves including shadows. I remember several nights working on replacing a few arms and legs essentially animating a few frames as other clean up techniques simply didn’t work as we had hoped or they called too much attention to the problem.

If someone wants to do a dissertation of our corrections of these original inadvertent mistakes, they only have to look at the 35mm scope version and compare for themselves, it’s as plain as day. If I were one of the animators, (and yes recently one of them has actually seen these fixes), they would (and are) in fact grateful that we corrected those areas. Thus one could say there is no mis representation of anyone’s work here.

For those who may still have animation concerns by all mean continue to disagree, but remember you were not here with us as we agonized over every frame and had to make determinations on how to make the film look as best as possible.

It would be amazing if you could do a restoration featurette extra on the Blu Ray. All your information and stories about how this was even made possible are fascinating! Thank you!!!

 

[OliverK]

I remember when we used to wait for the disc to actually come out before we looked to criticize it.

Fully agree although I had a feeling that there were also requests for last minute changes.

Obviously at some point such a release will be finished and wrapped up and revisiting it multiple times to cater to requests and wishes of people on internet forums is out of the question. This release is a not so small miracle as it is and one should not expect even more than that.

 

[nara]

As others have said, ignore the moaners and nit pickers Dave. This restoration, once thought impossible, is a magnificent achievement.

 

[Thomas T]

No matter how much the effort, how hard the work, how much the anticipation, there will always be someone to complain that the i isn't dotted. It's the nature of the beast.