more than a week with SVS sub-- results and questions (1 Viewer)

[Scott Basham]

okay, let me just give a list of what I'm using and then go from there.

Yamaha RX-V1000 receiver

Yamaha carosel DVD player

Klipsh: RF-3ii mains, KS-C1 center, quintets for rear.

Room size: about 3000 cubic feet with 2 openings to other rooms in the house. Sub placement in rear left corner to the side of a cloth couch.

I've recently added the SVS 16-46pc to the list and just yesterday, bought the Radio Shack slp meter.

First I'll say that the SVS is a nicely built product and the guys were great with their timely responses to my questions.

Second, it has some serious volume, no doubt. Running a scene from Disney's Dinasours where a dinasour comes out of the forest and chases another to it's death, I measured 112+ dB with the volume up pretty (make that extremely) loud, but still under the point of my amp clipping or any noticeable distortion.

While not "boomy" sounding, the SVS is very smooth, maybe even smoother than I expected. I'm still wondering if I should have went with the 20-39pc or even 20-39cs with the Sampson.

After reading so much about the THX intro to The Phantom Menace, I expected a little more of a "hit or concussion" feeling with the big 16-46, but really didn't get it. The rolling thunder prior and after the shattering sphere really, I mean

really rumbles, but the shattering sphere really doesn't hit like I would think. It reminds me of how loud sporting events, such as drag cars or etc. are muted to a point so that it doesn't distort watching them on tv. It's almost as if the amp processes the sound and then says, "whoa Nelie, that's gonna hurt, lets turn the juice down for that sound." Is it possible that I'm reaching the limits of the plate amp before the speaker and so the additional sound just isn't there?

A second question I have is that although I've calibrated the sub using the VE DVD, there is a significant drop in dB when checking the sound sweep found on any of the THX Audio Optimizer test. The sweep starts off with a fair amount registering, then about mid way down, goes real low before being picked back up by the sub and actually attaining a louder volume than at the beginning. What's wrong with this picture?

Is it possible that the couch could be filtering out sound in either of the previous mentioned events?

Also, I made this post public on this forum to share my experience with others and because my questions in no way are meant in a negative fashion toward SVS. I know they'll do what they can to help and I don't feel that anything is defective, just maybe not set up or placed as well as it should be. In the worst case, they have a 45-day trial period, so what more could you ask for?

I'm just wondering for about the same money if I would have got a little more kick out of the 20-39 and a Sampson or 20-39+ ?

Any comments are appreciated!

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

The sweep starts off with a fair amount registering, then about mid way down, goes real low before being picked back up by the sub and actually attaining a louder volume than at the beginning. What's wrong with this picture?

Scott, are these variances in level determined by measured signal level with your meter or just your impression from "by ear"?
If these SPL variances are measured on your SPL meter: this is the room response interacting with the sub. The size, shape, contents of the room have an effect on the freq response of the room- these things can cause giant holes or humps in the response of your system.
Good sub placement will sometimes overcome some of this problem- but you'll find a lot of people talking about EQing their subs- and this is exactly why. Overall response might be fine- but with giant dip and humps in the freq response, it's tough to get clean sounding bass.
If you are judging this by ear: remember that ear sensitivity to freq varies. Some sounds are less perceptible to humans (and to individuals) than others- so sometimes perfectly flat response sounds like it is going up and down due to our hearing. I would suggest getting some tone generation software (do a search here) and chart the response of your room using your RS SPL meter. If you use your meter you will need a correction chart (again, do a search) because the RS SPL meter is a little off on some freq and there is a chart with correction values...
After you get a chart of the response of the room- you can see what kind of response your room has and start deciding on if it can be "solved" with better placement or if you have to get into the wonderful world of eq correction.
Getting these eq variances cleared up will probably help the impact issues you've noticed- I would assume that you have some humps and dips in your room response that are subtracting from your enjoyment to some degree.
-Vince

 

[Brian Fellmeth]

Double check that the PC's crossover is disabled. It may be doing some inappropriate filtering. Also, double check that the PC's deep bass boost is disabled.

 

[Scott Basham]

Vince,

The sweep problem that I mentioned was measured not by ear, but strictly with the spl meter. However the difference is very noticeable and can be easily heard by ear as well.

Brian,

I thought that was one of the benefits of going with the powered version, that is being able to use the built in x-over on the plate amp. So, as you figured, I was doing my testing with the crossover on, but with all bass boost off as I had already ready the negatives of that. If I realized that the crossover may be useless, I almost positively would have went with a cs instead of pc.. Oh well, live and learn.. I may still do some tinkering around before I decide anything for sure. I'm still well within my 45-days.

 

[Scott Basham]

Has anyone directly compared the 16-46 with the SVS ultra? I'm thinking maybe I'd find more of what I'm looking for out of the Ultra. Would it be fair to assume that it would have a little more of a "hit" to it in explosions and things such as that. I'm not really looking for maximum loudness as the 16-46 is already too loud for about any human to endure.

 

[Lou Sytsma]

Scott where do you have the crossover set? Your Yahama probably has a crossover of 90 db. Set the crossover on the sub as high as it will go to avoid any frequency cancellation between the sub and the receiver.

If you are running the sub from the back corner have you tried adjusting the phase?

How did you set up the LFE level from your receiver? You want to control it from your receiver. The amp on the SVS should be turned up about 60 - 75%. There is a LFE level setting on the receiver. If it goes from -20db to 0db you want to set it at about -15db.

Next, have you tried the sub in any of the front corners?

 

[Shawn C]

I have the RXV1000 as well. Do you have your front speakers set to "LARGE" or "SMALL"? Setting them to LARGE will only send the LFE track to your SVS. Setting them to SMALL will send LFE and anything < 90HZ to your sub.

Maybe this is the "kick" you are missing. I'm just guessing.

 

[Scott Basham]

Lou,

I'm extremely limited on placement. The corner that it is in, is the only corner available. I think I've covered most of your suggestions, but probably should play with the the phase setting a little more. As mentioned earlier, I'm a little disappointed that the crossover on the sub is useless (according to recent suggestions) since it is to be set all the way up, or disabled.

Shawn,

I've played around with the speaker settings quite a lot, but not definite on what I had them set to when test TPM. What do you set your bass setting to when using the small setting for the mains; Sub, Main or Both?

Thanks again for the help guys!

 

[SVS-Ron]

Scott,

The 16-46 can dip a bit lower but the CS-Ultra can go MUCH louder from about 18Hz up. It would sound/feel subjectivelly about like 2 of the 16-46s through most of the common HT bass ranges. It would SOUND much the same, there would just be more of it.

On your receiver, make certain you have NO sound processing modes switched in, NO "THX Cinema" (can roll off low bass below 30Hz, massively in some applications), NO "Night Mode", no "LFE Trim" and no matter what... if it has ANY sort of "Peak limiter" put it on the highest setting you can and then recalibrate with the sub a few dBs over your mains. I typically run 5dBs over (but then I have twin CS-Ultras in a 11x13' room) which can sound great if you keep your system volume in check.

I think you may be looking at something above, and simple placement issues. As said many times, movie a sub a foot or two can change it's output at your seat by something like 2X!! Placement is critical, full stop.

Hope this helps some.

Ron

 

[Scott Basham]

Ron,

Thanks for the reply. I'm sure a lot of folks come and and say that they are limited on space, but with my room config., I have the sub in the only place it can be.. no moving.. I guess if this is just a room characteristic, I can eq it out sometime if it turns out to be a problem, which it really isn't now.

My main concern was with the example of the Phantom Menace or other explosions. I guess maybe the correct term may be "headroom" ? Anyway, it sounds like the ultra may be the way to go for my particular placement issues. While all of your subs are musical, would you say that the Ultra is at least as tight if not tighter sounding than the 16-46?

Also, does warranty carry over to any owner as long as it's within the time period?

Thanks!

 

[SVS-Ron]

Scott,

Last thing's first. Yes, an SVS is warranted no matter how many times it's changed hands. The original date of purchase is when the warranty clock starts ticking of course.

There is no doubt that in terms of headroom and impact that a single CS-Ultra will leave a single 16-46PC in the dust. I can't recall if you are out of your evaluation period? If you are I'd just hang on to the 16-46PC for a while longer and wait for some of the evaluations of the CS-Plus get out as well as future SVS's (we're always cooking up something new!) to come.

We've already released the fact that a PC-Plus will be out in the spring for example. One of these might be just what you are looking for in a max powered, single enclosure sub. Even a PC-Ultra will be released sooner or later (after the PC-Plus more than likely, perhaps summer of 02) so your options are pretty varied.

I perfectly understand your limited placement issues. My HT is the same way. And I sit in a massive null. Adding more output and making slight variations in setup, and perhaps even seating location are about your best way ahead.

Ron

 

[Scott Basham]

Ron,

That sounds like a fine warranty policy to me.. shows the confidence you your products too!

My sub was delivered on the 11th of this month (Dec), so I'm still pretty flexible as to what I do. Delivery date is when the trial period starts I assume?

"headroom and impact"-- yes, that's the words I was looking for and what I want!

Do you have any idea of what the PC-Plus is going to be in terms of price?

I hope to move to a house with more room for HT in the near future. If I could pick up a good deal on an Ultra from someone taking advantage of your upgrade offer, that might be the thing to do and then go with a twin later on down the road.

What are your feelings on the cross-over on the PC? It seems most people are saying to disable it, but I was under the impression that it was part of the advantage of the PC subs. If not, I believe that I'd rather have one that is powered by a stand alone amp.

Thanks again for your help.. not only does it help me, but it, once again, shows all not-yet-SVS-owners what they can expect from such a customer oriented company!

 

[ColinM]

When you (Scott) said that you measured the THX sweep, was that on the DVD extra-type sweep like you get on TPM? If yes, they say that it is not for calibration, only for correct hookup. If no, then disregard. I'm sure you know this...

I hear the same drop in the bass, but I know my system works fine so I'm not worried.

But I do get that pop in the chest when the THX globe explodes...

(1) 20-39CS / NHT SA-2, front left corner, +2 db, 2800 cu. ft.

Enjoy!

- CM

 

[Scott Basham]

Colin,

I think we are hearing the same thing with the sweep. From memory though, I thought it stated something about the sound being flat or consistent.

Yes, the pop in the chest is what I'm after. If I were to go with the ultra (which is about the same size as yours), it just may be short enough that I could have a few more spots to place it.

 

[Vin]

Yes, the pop in the chest is what I'm after.

Me too Scott....I'm trying to decide which SVS to go with as I move my Velo CT-120 to a secondary system in my home. I had been leaning towards the 16-46 CS but this discussion (especially Colin's last comment) has got me thinking the 20-39 might be the way for me to go.
My primary objective is LFE impact for HT and Tom V has recommended either the 25-31 or the 20-39 in my 2000 cubic foot room. I wonder if the additional output in the >20Hz range that you'd gain with one of these over the 16-46 would deliver that sonically induced myocardial infarction that we're looking for!
Vin

 

[ColinM]

Scott / Vin -

After doing some work with the Bass Mechanix CD, I realized that at normal movie levels (LOUD to the wifey) I can't really hear anything below 25 hz or so. At 21 - 22 hz, if I crank it up a bit, I can feel it, to be sure, but that's all. So can the house, BTW. I heard a rattle/clank in the other corner of the house (small post-war type, not a huge house) and upon investigation, I found a water pipe shaking VIOLENTLY!!! I must remember not to do that too often unless I want to ruin my carpet. My advice - Get the 25-31, because the low 20's are pretty inaudible (to me, and I measured it - adjusted - to be flat from 20 - 26 +/- 2db) and the extra oomph from 25hz - 40hz will give you the SHOVE in the chest you are looking for. I get it at between 29 - 35. Maybe 40.

I also feel that my SA-2 may not be quite enough with it's 165w into 4 ohms, but I have only thought that once or twice. Remember that if you like to crank it every other day or better, don't short yourself on watts.

 

[Vin]

Great info Colin....thanks!

Vin

 

[ColinM]

V - You betcha.

I went from an Optimus 10" 120 watter. Big diff. Your CT-120 is prolly much better than that one.

After the bass cd exploration, I realised that I'd be happy with the 25-31, mainly because I give more of a crap about good, correct musical bass than movie slam, but for the best of both worlds with little compromise, I went with the 20-39.

My measurements show flat from 20 - 63hz +/- 3.5db with the sub in the corner, with no big dips. Great for movies, but some 'presence' is lost on music. Along the long (28')wall to my right, about 16 feet down,(2 feet behind me) I get the best sound for music. On paper that translates to -10.5 db at 20hz (!) then a big rise starting at 22, to about 31, then a mild peak (kind of a flat plateau) that comes back down around 55. For some reason, that position sounded best with music, and the bass image is planted right in the middle of my mains. Kick drum on The Wall sounds completely live. Nick, was that you??

Toy Story 2 tonight......ahahahaha