More exclusive Dualdisc on the way (2 Viewers)

[Kris Deering]

I don't think it is a physical thickness issue at all. Most players that are having problems can play one side but not the other, so not really a thickness issue there.

The CD layer may or may not be a compliance issue. It may just be how picky the pickup is. Some players are better about playing certain discs then others. That has been proven time and again. It is really hard to figure out exactly what is making a player have an issue, but we can all make assumptions.

I am just tired of hearing numbers thrown out like 25% of players won't play this because there is no basis for that. I have heard complaints about the Toshiba 9200, Pioneer 563 and the Sony 777ES SA-CD player. That is it.

I have tried Dualdiscs on players from Denon, Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, Teac, McCormack, Onkyo, Integra, Oppo, Krell, Daewoo, Yamaha, Meridian, Theta, NAD, and Lexicon. None of them had issues.

 

[Paul.S]

We can go back-and-forth, Kris, but I sometimes think what I'll term your your 'pro-Dual advocacy' (i.e., comments made in other threads and your having started this one) works to obscure some objective information. You're missing the point on the disc thickness issue.

I'm not referring so much to the overall thickness of the Dual Disc. I'm referring to the fact that, at least as I understand it, the Dual design necessitates that the thickness of either the CD and DVD sides or at least the CD side be thinner than it would be if a standalone, one-sided disc was pressed of the same content from either side because of the very fact that the Dual has two sides, yet still needs to adhere to player tolerances for overall disc thickness. This design element apparently compromises the integrity/readability of one or both sides even though overall disc thickness might be approximately the same as a standard CD or DVD.

If we took a group of players that have issues with Dual playback which do not generally have issues with proper CD playback, although you can mildly poo poo it as an "assumption," I think it is deductively sound to opine that the issues Kyle DeVoe has repeatedly mentioned elsewhere and which I know you've read are probably to blame: to compensate for the CD side being thinner so overall Dual thickness is not much greater than a standalone DVD or CD disc, the CD side's data pits are closer together in order to fit the audio data on that side of the disc. This forces player error correction circuitry to work harder and probably create playback issues to varying degrees on various players. Disc manufacturing variances also probably play a role.

I've never heard that 25% figure you mention (cite please?). But if players with no CD or DVD playback issues are having even intermittent problems playing just Duals, it's logically inescapable--not just personal opinion--that something about the Dual design is the likely culprit.

Again, by thickness I am not rerring to the overall Dual being thicker than a standard DVD or CD (even though I've read that in some cases it is--again, manufacturing variances). So your counterpoint about some players playing one side fine but not the other is irrelevant to the issue of how one side, but perhaps not the other, is compromised by the fundamental design of the Dual Disc. I'm referring to both sides perhaps having been made thinner in order to create a two-sided disc that fits in most (but not all) players.

But here's hoping that these issues will not mar the release of new music from artists as big as The Boss and Bon Jovi for (m)any buyers.

-p

 

[Kris Deering]

Hey Paul

Despite my posts I am not a "Pro-Dual advocate". Believe me I would much rather have a 2 disc solution in this matter. But I don't make those decisions.

I agree that there are probably technical issues raised by the authoring of these discs that may prevent playback in some players. Funny though, I think it mentions that right on the back side of the case. In fact, I think there are a lot of DVDs out there that cause players to trip up too. Especially with branching features. But somehow I don't think these things are going to make your player all of a sudden blow up as the disc spins up.

It is a shame that the format that seems to bring most of the studios together has to have the compromises it does. But at the same time it is nice to finally see a nice selection and decent support for not only high resolution audio but multi-channel audio as well. By all means, everyone who doesn't like the format or wants to see it done a different way; WRITE THE STUDIOS AND TELL THEM!! If any of you think for just a second that coming on these forums and ranting about it does a single thing think again. It may for DVD Video, but not this market. You need to make an honest effort to tell the studios via the proper channels. Only then will you possibly see a change.

 

[Phil A]

More DualDisc news:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7269012/

 

[Kevin C Brown]

I have to be honest, I am not a fan of DualDisc, but I *am* seeing a better marketing effort behind it now than I remember ever seeing for DVD-A or SACD.

I am also surprised in that I can't remember either DVD-A or SACD getting all the negative press that DualDisc seems to be getting right now. Not just HTF, AVS, etc, but the mainstream (or ... more ... mainstream) press.

I am also wondering if any of the more popular SACDs will ever be released as DVD-A's... (Some have, but not yet for DSOTM and the Stones, for example...)

Personally, I want to stay away from DualDisc until the next generation of hardware comes out where I suspect the players might all be massaged to not have any problems at all with the thicker discs and thinner "CD" layers.

 

[Paul.S]

Thx for the link to the Krakow column, Phil. He asks why Sony didn't add a DVD layer to SACD and my understanding (from John K. in another thread) is that it's because DSD is not supported by the DVD spec. It would be interesting to get confirmation somehow as to whether this played a role in Sony's seeming abandonment of SA-CD II, which was to support video content.


I hear you, Kevin. Personally I am more interested in hi def. It's going to be very interesting to see if any nods are made to Dual by perhaps the first manuf to market a HD DVD/Blu-ray uni (Pio?).

-p

 

[Phil A]

Kevin, I agree with your statements about seeing what happens with future hardware and the marketing effort that seems to be better. Perhaps it is easier since both CD and DVD are popular consumer formats needing no special players and both have a strong hold in the market. Trying to explain the advantages of higher resolution to the avg. consumer who thinks the current formats are fine can sound like forcing them to buy new equipment and perhaps more pushy.

Paul, as far as putting a DVD and SACD together, I ran into this: http://www.cs2cd.com/

Don't know if there is truth to it or if it will really be used. I personally have no interest in the DualDisc format. I really think that with Blu-Ray and HD DVD being able to support multiple channels of high rate PCM that we may yet see launches of hi-rez on those as an effort to show they offer more than just better video.

 

[Phil A]

Also interesting is the poll on page 2 of the MSN article. While not scientific:

"Updated: 8:33 p.m. ET March 22, 2005Live Vote
What do you think of DualDiscs? * 56 responses


Haven't seen it yet, but willing to try it.
13%

Tried it, hated it.
48%

Tried it, loved it.
16%

I'm sorry, *buy* music? What is this, 1995?
23%
"


It does show, at least at the moment, that just over 25% either loved it or are willing to try it.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Realistically, that poll is the opposite of scientific. This article is being posted on 'audiophile' message boards all over the internet, and a bunch of people who are pissed off over the death of SACD are all over that poll.

That said, I'd be thrilled to have Double Disc replace DualDisc. There's a 100% compatible option right in front of us, and it has double the space for surround, high-res, videos, and extras (DVD-9 versus DVD-5).

 

[Marc Colella]

Not a very good article.

Essentially the columnist only tested Sony Dualdiscs, so he never tested any Dualdiscs with the Hirez side.

Add to the fact that his sample size is only one retail store.

The guy didn't do any real research.

And his gripe against Sony for letting SACD die off shows where his bias is in the first place.

Bottom line is that consumers will determine whether Dualdisc is here to stay or not. Despite some negative articles, it's still selling pretty decently and the labels seem to be giving it a good push.

 

[Kris Deering]

Good point Michael

I was talking with some reps from a label the other day about the Dualdisc vs two disc approach. They said the CD+DVD combination is A LOT cheaper then Dualdisc which requires a huge initial investment.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I would guess it would be cheaper because you use existing equipment and have economies of scale on production runs.

 

[Scott_lb]

Bought my first DualDisc yesterday (Yo-Yo MA). The CD side plays in my DVD player (Sony 7700) but will not play in my computer (relatively new Dell laptop with a new NEC CD/DVD burner). I'm not pleased about that since I store my CD collection as MP3 files on my hard drive. The DVD side will play on both my laptop and my stand-alone DVD player, however.

 

[Jesse Skeen]

They should do an LP DualDisc release like this one, with a record on one side and a CED videodisc on the other- of course you'd need an adaptor for the turntable, then you'd have to slide it back in the caddy to play the video:

http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/lum-fong/lum-fong.html

 

[Kevin C Brown]

This is one reason why I am not personally understanding the big push for DualDisc. We already have CD, DVD-V, and (cough) DVD-A. DualDisc *is* more expensive to produce than a 2-disc combo. Here's just one reason why:

Let's say I'm making CDs and DVDs and I have a yield of 90% for the CD line and a yield of 85% for the DVD line.

Now let's say I slap one of each together and make a DualDisc. The way that yield works, is that the yield of the DualDisc would be: 0.90 * 0.85 => 76.5%. And that's not even including the yield losses that would be associated from that bonding procedure itself.

As a manufacturer, I'd make much more money selling the 2 disc combo than a DualDisc.

 

[Kevin T]

when was sacd officially pronounced dead? as far as i can tell, both sacd and dvd-a formats are lame ducks to me as neither has really inspired me to purchase? i think i own two sacd, two dvd-a, and one dual disc. i'm liable to buy the nin dual disc once it's released. i'll probably also buy the lamb of god re-release of "ashes of the wake" on dual disc as well. speaking of dual disc, does anybody wanna buy my copy of "the downward sprial" dual disc? i have no use for it as the sacd version is better in my opinion.

kevin t

 

[Paul.S]

Thanks for that "Super Enhanced CD" page, Phil. It's a little odd, especially that "Compact Disc Digital Video" logo that's supposed to appear on "recommended players." The page has kinda homemade look to it.

-p

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Denon has finally come out with some DualDisc info:

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=18008347

 

[Justin Lane]

Thanks for the update Kevin. I saw a similar question and answer response from Sony on their website, which is funny as they have been pimping Dual Disc more than any other publisher. They are saying buy these releases from us, but if they don't work on our players, oh well, your fault.

Speaking on the article's author, Brian Moura at HFR really needs to get off his anti-Dual Disc soap box. I know he doesn't have much work anymore with the small amount of SA-CD releases trickling out, but all he posts are equipment advisory articles and nothing about the actual releases coming down the pipeline. Same thing was true when DVD-A and SA-CD were in "competition". I do feel sorry for him though, as he has obviously dedicated a large portion of his life to SA-CD with his reporting and website he runs, and there is not too much to get excited for as of late.

J

 

[Justin Lane]

Looking at HFR I found the following article with this telling quote from John Trickett of 5.1 Entertainment:



I am still not sold on Dual Disc having only bought David Bowie "Reality", but it appears the masses are really grabbing up this format. Dual Discs are displayed prominently in most retailers and at prices at or very close to the normal CD release which makes it an easy sell for customers.

I wish Sony, the format's biggest supporter to date would start to put real Hi-res on the discs, and if not at least give us DD 5.1 mixes of the music instead of their enhanced PCM crap. Also, I am looking for some more compelling releases from all studios which are simply not re-hashed DVD-A or SA-CD which I already owned or passed on.

J