Let's try to shed a little light on this whole "warm" vs. "bright" thing.... (1 Viewer)

[Kevin Alexander]

If you listen to most people on this forum, the general concensus is that "warm = good" and "bright = bad". The thing that gets confusing sometimes is that 2 different people can listen to a setup and one walks away w/ the impression of it being what they describe as "warm", while the other feels that the presentation was on the "bright" side. I get the impression that these descriptions are misapplied at times - if we like the sound, it's automatically "warm" (which equates w/ good), but if we don't like it, it was "bright" sounding. I'm not trying to tell anyone what they do or don't hear, but could it be w/ this issue that different ears are hearing different things? Personally, I happen to prefer a brighter presentation w/ movies and music, not an ear splitting, tinny, nails-across-the-chalkboard type sound, but a well balanced sound that doesn't roll off the upper frequencies. To me, the term "warm" is a description of equipment devoid of the higher frequencies, and that concentrates more on midrange and a some bass - the thought of that reminds me of my old HK AVR80/ Polk LS series speakers. Although costing close to $4000, this combo produced the most dull, uninspired sound I can remember (which I attribute to that model of Polk speakers). If that's what you call "warm", you can have it. Am I off in what some of you describe as "warmth"? If I am, I'd appreciate your explanation of it. Thanks.

 

[KeithH]

Kevin, shall we shed a bright light or a warm light on the subject?
Seriously, this is an excellent topic of discussion. I agree that the consensus is that warm is good and bright is bad. However, it is obviously difficult to convey things we hear into words. To my mind, "warm" often means the highs are rolled off; "bright" often means that the highs aren't rolled off and the presentation is detailed. "Forward" is sometimes used to describe systems that err on the bright side.
Systems or individual components can be too warm or too bright, and I have heard both. I find overly warm systems and components to be lifeless and "slow". The bass and/or mid-range can be smeared. That's no good to my ear. Obviously, and I say obviously because this angle gets more airtime, overly bright systems or components can be downright harrowing. The key is to strike a balance.
All things considered, I prefer a sound on the bright side if I have to lean one way or the other. It can't make my ears bleed or peel paint off the walls. However, I like the detail that often comes along with a brighter presentation. I think many people seek a warm presentation to tame the "glare" or edge that we often observe with digital audio, namely CDs. However, it is easy to go too far on the warm side and lose musicians. If a recording is very digital, I don't mind a system that brings that out because that's the way the recording is. If a system brings out a digital glare that is inherent to a recording, I will benefit by hearing all the good qualities that the recording has to offer. If I move to a warmer system, I might lose something in the process. I don't want that. Again, I won't go too far in my quest for detail or transparency such that things get overly bright. As I said, there is such a thing as too bright, where the music is no longer enjoyable. One needs to find a balance.

 

[Tim Hoover]

I wouldn't say that generally warm=good and bright=bad, as it's all really a matter of opinion. We can't objectively state that a certain piece of equipment is warm or bright - unless compared to other pieces - because everyone's taste varies as to what constitutes warm or bright. There is no set standard as to what warm or bright are exactly.
Personally, I am really sensitive to treble. I prefer what some would call warm, because the commonly described "bright" is too bright for my tastes. And on the flip side, what I would term "warm" would be extremely warm for some tastes. I do enjoy a detailed sound, but not so much as to make me uncomfortable. Again, this level varies from person to person.
As this is such an intensely personal preference, I am glad to have so many choices available to me for sonic presentation. Keith probably also appreciates this, so he wouldn't have to live with my standard of a detailed presentation and I with his

 

[Robert_Dufresne]

Keith

Very well said I think you hit the nail wright on the head

 

[Bill_Weinreich]

but could it be w/ this issue that different ears are hearing different things?

This is very true. What may sound too "bright" to some may be perfect to others. As we all know, everyone is shaped differently, including the ears. Try this as a simple test:
Listen to your favorite soundtrack at a moderate volume. Now simply move your earlobes around to change their shape. The highs (being especially directional) will change dramatically. You may even hear parts of the track you haven't heard before.

Bill

 

[Kevin C Brown]

I have heard "bright" equated with "detail" as well, so not necessarily a bad thing. Also goes with your room environment too. For some rooms, bright might be better (a "dead" one), or warm for others (a "lively" room).

I personally think (putting on my flamesuit now), that a lot of what is judged warm vs bright is simply the listener's expectation as applied to a particular piece of equipment. (Gee, it costs more, so it must sound better: hence warm vs bright. I have seen this applied to the Outlaw vs the Rotel pre/pros so many times it's laughable.)

And as applied particularly to electronics (*not* speakers), if it's so easy for some to ascertain warm vs bright, then why can't that typically be measured? Say by a "hotter" frequency response curve?

 

[joe logston]

i think that the more accurate the speaker the more brighter it sounds a lot of times the speaker position and set up will fix the unaccurate smeared sound of the highs that hurts your ears, you got to set speakers up right for accurate highs, and a lot of the the software will smear the sound to, thats why a lot of people get tube stuff to roll off the smeared highs from speaker set up and bad software, turntables roll off the highs to. digital domain is a lot more accurate that analog but it is almost to accurate for the speakers and equitment, and the sound studios and the mites they use, but its getting a lot better, the software,there will be a time wend it like a live performance. in the near future.

 

[Martice]

I have heard "bright" equated with "detail" as well, so not necessarily a bad thing. Also goes with your room environment too. For some rooms, bright might be better (a "dead" one), or warm for others (a "lively" room).

Kevin, I don't know how many of us forget that all important aspect of our audio experience. Warm and bright are extremely relative to the rest of your system and room acoustics. You can also throw in the term 'neutral' although I'm guilty of using all of these terms myself I have to acknowledge out loud that it's really hard and impossible to conclusively say how it will sound to someone else in their individual systems and rooms.

 

[KeithH]

No question that room acoustics can influence our perception of sound. I was considering an all-things-being-equal scenario where the sound quality boils down to the equipment. For example, let's consider one room and vary the equipment. Still, a bright system in one room could be tamed in a different room or in the same room with acoustic treatments.
In the end, the room is part of the system. No question about it. However, in discussions of systems, it is too hard to incorporate the room. There are too many factors to consider, and I would bet that few of us could adequately describe our rooms over the Internet. The only commonality in our discussions is the equipment.
Robert,
Thanks for the kind words. Every once in awhile, something clicks in my melon.
Bill,
Dover, DE, huh? I'm a Delawarean too. That makes four of us on the HTF that I know of. Perhaps some

among us Delawareans is in order.

 

[Bill_Weinreich]

Yeah Keith. A De meet is in order dont ya think?

PM me and maybe someday we could set something up.

 

[BruceD]

I usually judge too "bright" by the fact that listening to my favorite tunes causes listener fatigue within an hour or two.

I like detail and nuance, but not if it causes fatigue.

 

[Justin Lane]

I agree that the terms bright and warm get thrown around way too much. It seems like they are the only two words to describe speaker performance. Then the terms get thrown into amplifier performance as well, and people try to match the combos.

Truth be told amplifier performance is very very good these days, even on the cheaper units. Almost every amp on the market has generally linear response making speaker the weakest point of most systems. If you want a "bright" system I guess you would look for a speaker with peaks in the high frequencies, and for a "warm" system peaks in the mid-range.

Of course when you start buying speakers for peaks in certain frequencies, you are getting away from the true definition of hi-fi...the faithful reproduction of sound.

J

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Justin- Amen, brother! Very nicely worded post.

 

[Kevin Alexander]

Of course when you start buying speakers for peaks in certain frequencies, you are getting away from the true definition of hi-fi...the faithful reproduction of sound.

There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ personal preferences in sound. Some like the nuances in detail that "brightness" offers over what some describe as "warmth". To say that one is 'getting away from the true definition of hi-fi...' just because that one appreciates the detail in certain frequencies doesn't sound quite right. And just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, 'the faithful reproduction of sound' is in the ear of the listener - according to his/her preferences.

 

[Michael R Price]

I agree about the confusions and looseness of these terms but I would like to make a comment about people not liking brightness.

I love brightness. I hate harshness. They are two completely different things. Brightness is the realistic reproduction of high frequencies, like the crash of cymbals or a blaring trumpet. Harshness and fatigue is what happens when a system tries to produce realistic treble and doesn't do it right. Most audiophile-type systems which are "warm" don't even try to produce realistic treble. They may not be fatiguing, but the sound is pretty lifeless. Does it sound anything like a real trumpet or real drumkit?

That sounds a bit extreme, but I think it represents my opinion well, especially concerning speakers.

I don't know how we can call amplifiers bright and warm because the differences aren't really in terms of frequency response (as in the amount of high frequency sound). Maybe we call good amps warm for lack of a better term, and bad solid state amps bright because they produce high frequency distortion?

 

[Kevin Alexander]

Great explanation Michael. Brightness and harshness are indeed 2 different things.

 

[Justin Lane]

And just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, 'the faithful reproduction of sound' is in the ear of the listener - according to his/her preferences.

If anything I would say the Unfaithful Reproduction of sound is in the ear of the beholder.
Bottom line is that people have different preferences in how they like their sound reproduced, myself included. Just because we have different preferences though, does not mean any of them are entirely correct. What we have is fairly accurate reproductions of the original source material, but not a perfect reproduction.
There can be only one original and it is recorded to sound a specific way. Hi-Fi is striving to reproduce this original source as faithfully as possilbe. If you do not have this as your goal for sound reproduction, then you are not truly striving for Hi-Fi in your home.
J

 

[Lee-c]

I think a big part of the problem here might be that few speakers reproduce extremely
accurate highs, and if the highs aren't done accurately, then it's rather unpleasant. And since this
is generally what enthusiasts are stuck with, they move toward more warm sounding gear to avoid
the less-than-ideal high freq.'s.

I understand this. Ideally, I would like the highs to be just like the real thing (or very close).
Since in reality that isn't likely to happen, I'd rather the gear lean a bit on the warm side
so that no harshness or fatigue sets in during long listening sessions. Detail is nice, but if
I have to go one way or the other, I'd rather err a tad on the side of warmth, rather than endure
sound that is annoying or harsh on the ears over time.

 

[AntonS]

Truth be told amplifier performance is very very good these days, even on the cheaper units.

Unfortunately this is not absolute truth. As good as the amplifiers have become, they are still quite different, especially when you compare a 100Wpc (hm... true 100Wpc) built-in receiver amp to an 200+ Wpc external amp. Even if you are not driving the amps into clipping (as you never should), the transistors are working in very different areas of their transfer characteristic curves, which are not linear. Plus a good external amp has 8 or more output transisitors when a receiver amp is lucky to have 2.

I have compared side by side two amps (internal and external) in my own house - they did sound quite a bit different from 200Hz and down, exactly where the most current is needed to pass through those driver coils so they move enough air. Regardless what the manufactures want you to believe, the amplifiers are not quite linear, in fact the response of an amplifier changes with load. Also, ther are other things to consider, like feedback or slew rate. So saying that every amp sounds the same wpould not be true. Maybe saying that every amp in the same power/price category sounds very similar with the same speakers is closer to truth.

Michael R Price, harshness is the result of harmonic distortions (3rd order) either in the electronics or more likely in the speakers. Brightness is the result of non-uniform frequency response, when the mids and lows are subdued so high frequencies sound louder. You don't need much to hear it, 2-3 dB is more than enough to tell the difference between "warm" and "bright", and 2-3 dB will be within the amp specs!

 

[Kevin Alexander]

Nobody intentionally chooses a harsh sound. Since all of us have a certain sensitivity to hearing that's specific to us as individuals, we're going to hear things that we like that others may dislike, and vice versa. Even here in this thread, some continue to equate the term "warmth" w/ good. And if it's not on the warm side, it's fatiguing and harsh. This is not true. It is possible to strike a good balance in choosing equipment.