Blu-ray Review Lady and the Tramp: Diamond Edition Blu-ray Review (1 Viewer)

[Chuck Pennington]

Okay, one more time. Is the choral section of "Belle Notte" supposed to be acapella or not? It's acapella in the English version, and adds orchestrations on the foreign language tracks. I could swear my 1980s LATT English soundtrack vhs had the orchestrations, and they suddenly disappeared when the film moved to dvd. Those orchestrations are still gone on the blu-ray, unless I simply am not hearing them! You can hear 'em loud and clear on the French and Spanish soundtracks. Anybody?

No orchestra (we're talking about the part that is over the montage of Lady and Tramp walking about at night, right?). I am comparing the 1980s Laserdisc to the 2012 Blu-ray and there is no orchestra in that section. But there IS an orchestra on the 1998 flat version release. But that was the same release that was fudged royally during remixing where, at the end of the film, there is a chorus singing and another chorus humming loudly all over top of each other. Apparently they used some kind of music track that was used to dub the foreign releases while remixing the film. From what I remember, Disney acknowledged the error and it was corrected on the 1999 DVD release. But the 1987 video release - just as on the 2006 and 2012 releases - there is no orchestra playing during this sequence.

 

[Mark B]

and BRIGADOON (the flat version of the latter has yet to surface).

I have the flat BRIGADOON. It used to air on TCM in the late 90s (as did the flat 7 FOR 7) rather than the 'Scope version.

 

[Chuck Pennington]

They did release it in theaters that weren't yet equipped for Cinemascope. They created it first...look at Robert Harris's review. It was released. And I doubt Disney would create something where heads were cut off. It was carefully composed, as all of Disney's films were. You can't go by a laserdisc transfer to tell what a film looked like.

It was in production during the period when Cinemascope made a splash. The decision was made during production to design it for Cinemascope, but to make an alternate version in case Cinemascope was just a passing fad (as 3-D was turning out to be in 1953). It was released in 1955, and the only ad materials, posters and such that I can find tout CinemaScope. I believe I got the notion that the alternate version ended up not being used was from THE DISNEY FILMS by Leonard Maltin years and years ago. From what I heard, many people at Disney weren't even aware that the flat version existed, which is why the 1987 release was pan/scan from 'Scope. Only upon the 1998 video release was that flat version finally seen on video, and quite possibly anywhere.

 

[Chuck Pennington]

I have the flat BRIGADOON. It used to air on TCM in the late 90s (as did the flat 7 FOR 7) rather than the 'Scope version.

Was it ever released on video, the flat version of BRIGADOON? I know both SEVEN BRIDES have been put out. I forgot about ROSE MARIE being one of the ones shot twice. Was KNIGHTS OF THE ROUND table shot twice as well? I know there are some others, besides also THE ROBE, that were shot twice in the event that Cinemascope was just a temporary thing.

 

[Mark B]

Was it ever released on video, the flat version of BRIGADOON? I know both SEVEN BRIDES have been put out. I forgot about ROSE MARIE being one of the ones shot twice. Was KNIGHTS OF THE ROUND table shot twice as well? I know there are some others, besides also THE ROBE, that were shot twice in the event that Cinemascope was just a temporary thing.

I believe KNIGHTS was shot twice as well. No, BRIGADOON has not been released on video. They should make it an "Archive" release, imo, along with the others.

 

[Techman707]

Was it ever released on video, the flat version of BRIGADOON? I know both SEVEN BRIDES have been put out. I forgot about ROSE MARIE being one of the ones shot twice. Was KNIGHTS OF THE ROUND table shot twice as well? I know there are some others, besides also THE ROBE, that were shot twice in the event that Cinemascope was just a temporary thing.

I know for sure that they ran a flat version of Brigadoon in that Goldwyn series in the early 80's, however, I'm certain that it WASN't a version that was shot flat. I don't even believe that the flat 7 Brides in that series was the supposed version that was shot flat, because it was flat 1.85:1. Someone told me that the flat version of the Robe was run on TV, however, the only version I ever saw on TV was pan & scan (better known as a DeLuxe edge banger). If they ran a "shot flat" version, why would any station run a pan & scan?

 

[Mike Frezon]

Originally Posted by Ethan Riley

Okay, one more time. Is the choral section of "Belle Notte" supposed to be acapella or not? It's acapella in the English version, and adds orchestrations on the foreign language tracks.
I could swear my 1980s LATT English soundtrack vhs had the orchestrations, and they suddenly disappeared when the film moved to dvd. Those orchestrations are still gone on the blu-ray, unless I simply am not hearing them! You can hear 'em loud and clear on the French and Spanish soundtracks. Anybody?

I just checked all the tracks, Ethan, and it is exactly as you describe. Both English tracks (the 7.1 and 3.0) are indeed acapella...while the French and Spanish tracks contain an orchestral bed.

I went to my best source available to me...the Official Soundtrack CD released in 1997. The CD contains a completely restored soundtrack...along with most of the score...as restored by the great Disney restoration producer Randy Thornton. The chorale ending of Bella Notte does indeed have the orchestral bed underneath it...making me believe the English versions on the BD are in error. They still certainly sound great...but that doesn't excuse the absence of the orchestration.


I will be sending a question to Randy Thornton to see if I can get an answer from him as to what might have happened.


On another note, I was a little surprised in the scene at the beginning of the film--when we meet Tramp--that he is colored a light brown (nearly beige) when he is, in fact a grey throughout the rest of the film.

 

[Mark B]

I know for sure that they ran a flat version of Brigadoon in that Goldwyn series in the early 80's, however, I'm certain that it WASN't a version that was shot flat. I don't even believe that the flat 7 Brides in that series was the supposed version that was shot flat, because it was flat 1.85:1. Someone told me that the flat version of the Robe was run on TV, however, the only version I ever saw on TV was pan & scan (better known as a DeLuxe edge banger). If they ran a "shot flat" version, why would any station run a pan & scan?

The alternate versions of BRIGADOON AND SEVEN BRIDES were shot to be projected at 1.75:1.

 

[Techman707]

They did release it in theaters that weren't yet equipped for Cinemascope. They created it first...look at Robert Harris's review. It was released. And I doubt Disney would create something where heads were cut off. It was carefully composed, as all of Disney's films were. You can't go by a laserdisc transfer to tell what a film looked like.

I agree, Disney wouldn't have gone to all the trouble creating a "flat version", only to have a head chopped off like that. In addition, theatres didn't normally run a full 1.33:1 in practice. Most theatres at that time ran 1.37:1 or higher, so if that was a flat version, the head would be cropped even more, which is hard to believe. I never actually ran Lady & the Tramp until the 1971 release, which was definitely a scope print. However, right after Cinemascope came out, a group of independent theatres brought suit against Fox over the "mag only" scope prints and by 1955 they were already starting to come out with the dual "mag.optical" prints. With all the different types of anamorphic lenses that flooded the market in 1955, I can't imagine WHAT THEATRES Disney was concerned about not being able to run Cinemascope? Certainly not in its original opening, since ALL the major circuits were already equiped to run not only scope, but 4 track mag. Now the shots of 7 Brides, flat and scope, CERTAINLY appear different, assuming that they are exactly matched, since a fraction of a second could produce the changes shown if it was an action shot.

 

[Techman707]

The alternate versions of BRIGADOON AND SEVEN BRIDES were shot to be projected at 1.75:1.

Then maybe the Goldwyn prints were the ones that were shot flat. While Brigadoon wasn't too bad, although very grainy, the flat print of 7 Brides looked like $hit and I recall a few people complaing about the way it looked. Fortunately, it was only run for special shows in the morinings. It reminded me of the last time I ran a print of the MGM musical "Lili" with Leslie Caron. It was so grainy and unclear that it looked like it came from an 8mm camera off the screen. They think they can pass anything off on people.

 

[Mark-P]

First of all, just as I suspected, the shot with Lady's head cut off in Chuck's screencap is intentional. The dialog that goes with the scene is "Why Miss Lady, you have a new collar." "And a License too!" They were empahsising the collar and dogtag in the center of the shot. Now, here are a few screencaps I made, not as high quality as Chuck's, but they better demonstrate how layout was modified for the special flat version. 1998 Laserdisc 2012 DVD 1998 Laserdisc 2012 DVD

 

[cafink]

Yes, you're right, the 1.33:1 version is superior. I have been comparing the two, and I got the frames as close as I could to compare. The flat version was very carefully composed, as can be seen above.

This is a ridiculous strawman argument. No one has claimed that the 4:3 version is "superior" or "carefully composed," only that it differs from the widescreen version in a unique and interesting way, and is worth preserving on Blu-ray for posterity and as an interesting comparison.

It was enough for Sony and many other studios to release pan/scan only versions of their films, some of which were previously available in widescreen on the format.

And has anyone on the HTF defended Sony's decision to do so? I didn't say that consumer ignorance of aspect ratios is never taken into account for DVD/Blu-ray releases, only that it is a bad decision.

 

[Brian W.]

This is a ridiculous strawman argument. No one has claimed that the 4:3 version is "superior" or "carefully composed," only that it differs from the widescreen version in a unique and interesting way, and is worth preserving on Blu-ray for posterity and as an interesting comparison.

Amen.

 

[Brian Borst]

I like how Disney opens the film with the late 1980's/1990's Walt Disney Pictures logo and then the original Buena Vista Logo opening. This is how WB's should do their titles instead of replacing the logo with a brand new one! (deleting the original) 

At least Warner is consistent . Disney does a different approach for every catalog title they release, it seems. Pinocchio got the RKO logo (for the first time?), Beauty and the Beast had it's original logo replaced, Lady and the Tramp has a logo that's not even used these days, The Nightmare Before Christmas has the logo from a completely different studio, and so on. It's ridiculous. Just show the latest version of a logo for a few seconds with no sound (to keep the company that owns the studio happy), and then proceed to show the original movie, with all the logos intact that it had the first time. It's really not rocket science.

 

[Brent Reid]

I just checked all the tracks, Ethan, and it is exactly as you describe. Both English tracks (the 7.1 and 3.0) are indeed acapella...while the French and Spanish tracks contain an orchestral bed.

I went to my best source available to me...the Official Soundtrack CD released in 1997. The CD contains a completely restored soundtrack...along with most of the score...as restored by the great Disney restoration producer Randy Thornton. The chorale ending of Bella Notte does indeed have the orchestral bed underneath it...making me believe the English versions on the BD are in error. They still certainly sound great...but that doesn't excuse the absence of the orchestration.

I will be sending a question to Randy Thornton to see if I can get an answer from him as to what might have happened.

Did you ever get an answer from Randy Thornton, Mike?

The film's original audio mix was also discussed earlier in this thread, with no resolution. Can anyone state definitively (no speculating now!) what it is; was there more than one?