Imaging? (1 Viewer)

[Jason Garrett]

I'm curious what the proper terminology is for the 3rd dimensional quality that I can hear with some recordings in 2 channel. This is beyond left, right, and vocal placement - it's like depth. Additionally, I'm curious if some discs are indeed better at producing this than others.

My reason for asking is that I recently moved my system into a much bigger room which has been great for sub placement issues, but it means that my front mains are no longer equal distance from the side walls and I've had trouble hearing this depth, until last night when I suppose I was in the proper mood to really listen and it was actually a Patsy Cline cd that produced it first. I've been trying to hear it with the new Michelle Branch disk Hotel Paper and I just can't "see" it like that as much as I would like to. I thought it was because of the setup, but I guess maybe it's not.

 

[Jason Garrett]

Ok, well I did find something on the subject - and if this is correct then the recording can make a difference. One thread also mentions the more complex imaging of newer recordings. Maybe my setup is just not capable of producing the complex 3-d nature of some recordings?

"Stereo imaging can be created in many different ways. It can also be
destroyed in many different ways. The ultimate effectiveness of
stereo imaging is entirely dependent on a combination of phenomena:

- The acoustics of the hall
- The placement of the musicians
- The microphone technique
- The quality of the recording and playback equipment
- The placement of the loudspeakers
- The position of the listener in the listening room
- The acoustics of the listening room"

Gabe Wiener from rec.audio.high-end

 

[Phil A]

Jason, the set-up in the listening room is a factor as well. Is there a big TV between the speakers? If so, you may want to get a quilt and place it over it to see if it has an impact. If it does, you can get some velcro and some quilted mat'l at a local fabric store and attach the velcro to the fabric and back of the TV so the you can keep the fabric in place and have the big box covered.

The speakers should also be at a point where the drivers are in front of TV, furniture, etc. so you don't get reflections of of that. If close to a sidewall on one side, a little toe ii can do a lot. I generally set-up most stuff with a slight toe in anyway so that each speaker is facing a point a couple of feet outside of your shoulders on each side.

And finally, I'm not sure how your sub is set-up. Are you just using the crossover in your pre/pro or receiver via a low level RCA connection? If so you may want to get a disc with test tones to see where your mains drop off vs. where the sub is operating. Ideally for music you want the sub to fill-in frequencies your mains don't produce and not duplicate where they are operating. Many systems are optimized for home theater as that is the bulk of the market.

 

[Rich Malloy]

The speakers should also be at a point where the drivers are in front of TV, furniture, etc. so you don't get reflections of of that. If close to a sidewall on one side, a little toe ii can do a lot.

Aside from the peculiarities of a particular recording and the limits of your equipment, achieving good imaging is almost entirely a function of placement within a particular space. Some spaces are better than others, and some are simply hopeless, but to get the most out of a particular space will require alot of experimentation with placement and careful listening.

Phil's point can't be stressed enough. If your speakers are back against the frontwall, imaging will suffer. If you've got a big TV in between your speakers, imaging will suffer. The answer? Get them out into the room! In my experience, four feet off the front wall is the minimum necessary for good imaging, particularly the sense of depth that you perceive has been lost.

Of course, the further you pull your speakers away from the front wall, the less the bass will be reinforced. Not a problem if you're using a separate sub, but a trade-off between imaging and bass response is often the fine-line we tread.

Remember: small changes can have large effects.

 

[Al B. C]

Nice to have you back Rich!

 

[Jason Garrett]

Thanks for the replies. I may very well have my speakers setup with too much toe in and I suppose that the coffee table isn't helping matters, but it sure is convenient for the laptop that I use as a media hub. If you can excuse my mess and wires everywhere I posted a couple of pics of the setup.

Try this link: www.fastfwd.dns2go.com/hometheater.htm

I welcome suggestions.

 

[Ted Lee]

Remember: small changes can have large effects.

boy...ain't that the truth.

i recently moved my system to a different wall...the net effect being a more "boxed in" environment for my speakers.

my speakers became wayyy too boomy. i moved them out approximately one foot...i swear...just one foot...and the sound improved quite a bit.

tbh, i always preach this placement stuff, blah, blah, blah....but i was kinda surprised when it actually worked in this case.

btw - i couldn't load your link. got some kind of error.

 

[John Garcia]

The first thing I would recommend is decent stands.

Play with the amount of toe. You seem to have a bit much, but I think that will play a BIG role in your imaging and depth. They don't appear to be too close to the walls, and they seem far enough apart.

IMO, your rears should not be pointed directly at you.

With my new speakers, I've found that VERY small movements, we are talking about less than an inch, changes the way they sound, and it took a lot of experimentation to get "that" sound. It's easy to tell when it is not right, but not so easy to find "just right".

 

[Jason Garrett]

Thanks John, yea stands are way down the list of things I need including paying for the tires I just had to buy for my car. They are fairly precariously perched on the blocks, but these used to rest in the corner and it wasn't a problem. They are the perfect height, but just not very stable. I do need to figure out how to anchor them until I can get some decent stands.

I toyed with the toe on them a bit tonight and found that the more out they are toed the vocals become dispersed, but they did need a little bit less toe in. A bit better width and the vocals are still very well placed in my opinion. I sound like I'm trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about or something, but this is just my perception.

I'm afraid it would be hard for me to move the speakers further away from the wall with the 32" TV and not have the speakers too close or the TV too far. What would you suggest is best for the surrounds? It would be better for me to move them directly behind me becuase to the sides wouldn't be very convenient. Should they be brought in closer?