I forgot how bad Voyager was...

Discussion in 'TV Shows' started by Eric_Connelly, Dec 26, 2004.

  1. Eric_Connelly

    Eric_Connelly Second Unit

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    I set the DVR to record Voyager reruns...

    Watched part of Body & Soul...the worst of Enterprise is better than this.
     
  2. Sam Favate

    Sam Favate Producer

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    I was never much of a fan of Voyager. I watched it for 7 years, hoping it would get better, but I don't think it ever did. For me, it was both a flawed premise and poor writing that damned the show -- the cast was pretty good. But the writing never exhibited the maturity and thoughtfulness that TNG and DS9 did. I was down on Enterprise when it began, right up through last year, but this fourth season has really turned around (thanks to a new show runner) and I look forward to seeing what's next. The 9 or 10 episodes that Enterprise has had this season are better than anything Voyager did in 7 years, IMO.
     
  3. Eric_Connelly

    Eric_Connelly Second Unit

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    I can't imagine how bored people must have been to watch Voyager for 7 years [​IMG]

    Seriously...I forget why I never watched it, think it conflicted with something else and this was before DVR's and my motivation to set a VCR.

    Maybe it was just this one ep, but it was SOOOOO bad and cheesy, far worse than any Enterprise episode.
     
  4. CaptDS9E

    CaptDS9E Cinematographer

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    The problem with voyager was charector development. TNG and DS9 had a good balance of episodes about all cast members. Voyager for the most part was the captain , doctor and seven. there were a few sprinkled in about the other crew members. However the writing for most of those episodes for the other crew members was so bad (expecially chakotay) that bad episodes out weighed the good ones. There are a lot of good voyager episodes believe it or not. They are just so spread out unless you watched on a regular basis you probably missed them. Most of the good ones are where the entire crew worked together and not one person was focused on

    capt
     
  5. Chris

    Chris Lead Actor

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    I spent last week and went back and watched all of DS9. It suprised me how overall good the series was; from the get go, it seemed to have a basic flow of plot; an involvement of an array of characters and good backstory with all of them.. even cute stories about completely sideline characters (Morn). DS9 was (IMHO) the best of Trek.

    Voyager spoiled that. And I can give one great example of this: The Macquis.

    In Voyager, they learned to get along but then it just seemed to be dropped. The Macquis were dissidents early and just beligerent without a lot of detail or soul behind their characters.

    In early DS9, even to late, the Macquis were not evil people; they were people who felt the federation betrayed them, who made an effective case; one of the better episodes (IMHO) involved Eddington in his announcement that the Federation was "virtually as bad as the Borg" with their insistance that everyone wanted to join..

    DS9 seemed to make the most out of situations, Voyager just killed any real story behind things and went for surface level without giving any characters motivation or reasoning. Hell, in DS9, even the bad guys had a decent story that made you try to understand where they were coming from (The Founders, etc.) who were fleshed out to the point even though you disliked them, the thought of genocide, which was attempted, was appalling.

    DS9 breathed life into the characters. Voyager just sucked life out of viewers [​IMG]

    Enterprise has been pretty mediocre, but it was never as bad as Voyager; and the fourth season of Enterprise has been fairly good.. not great, but definitely better then most TV, and better then anything Voyager had.

    Voyager stripped down and went for the T&A show, which is what hurt Enterprise early on.. instead of storyline.
     
  6. TheLongshot

    TheLongshot Producer

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    I was reminded how bland Voyager was when I picked up a free copy of the novel "Homecoming", which tells what happens when the crew returns to Earth. I found myself so disinterested that I barely got into the book before putting it down for good. I just wasn't very interested to hear about these characters.

    Jason
     
  7. Mike Graham

    Mike Graham Supporting Actor

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    I tried watching the series for almost 3 seasons, but couldn't take it anymore. Whether it was ruining the villains, Maquis or Borg, to making the worst captain ever, the show never clicked with me. Even the finale failed to satisfy. Instead of going the DS9 route, wrapping up the main arc with the first hour, then wrapping up the character arcs in the second, we just see Voyager fly into Earth's orbit as the credits appear. What kind of a rip off is that?
     
  8. todd s

    todd s Lead Actor

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    That to me was the worst thing Voyager did. They never wrapped it up. The show was about a ship lost for 7 years. And they spent no time showing the resolution for the crew after returning. They should have done was have Voyager return home with about 3-4 episodes before the finale. Then spent the last episodes having the characters deal with returning. For example: What happened to the Maquis crewmembers? The blew good character driven stories for another fight with the seldom seen Borg (sarcasm). [​IMG]
     
  9. Mikel_Cooperman

    Mikel_Cooperman Producer

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    I did the same because I was such a fan of Trek in general but looking back, I have to say the series overall was a letdown. I wont even buy the box sets. Characters that werent well written, plots that were very basic and a ship that never had to really struggle.
    Voyager was the beginning of the end for Trek.
     
  10. Tony Whalen

    Tony Whalen Producer

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    I've always been a huge fan of the "franchise". I've got a huge novel collection, own TOS, TNG and DS9 on DVD, and even have a few props.

    Even though I've loved Trek since I was a wee one, Voyager ... to be frank... blew chunks.

    I watched the first two or three seasons, in the hopes it would improve. (Enterprise HAS improved a great deal this year.) It didn't. I slowly stopped watching over the 4th and 5th seasons, and have seen little or none of the last two seasons. I *did* tune in for the finale, which sucked.

    They sucked the life out of the Maquis... they sucked the life out of one of the best, most fearsome villians ever (The Borg) and they had little or no character development, except perhaps for the Doctor and 2-of-38..er...7-of-9.

    Even Jeri Ryan moving around in skin-tight cat-suits wasn't enough to keep me tuned in. [​IMG]

    Personally, I think the entire concept was flawed. A ship lost and travelling home...good idea. Mixed crew... good idea. On paper. Sadly, it just didn't work out, mostly due to the writing. (I don't dislike any of the characters, except perhaps for Neelix, mostly because I don't CARE about any of the characters. That they failed to make me feel anything about the crew makes the writing a HUGE failure.)

    Like I said above... I own TOS, TNG and DS9 on DVD. I'll probably purchase ENT when it comes out. Voyager will never grace my shelves.
     
  11. RickGr

    RickGr Second Unit

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    The only good thing about Voyager is/was the opening theme/credits.
     
  12. Tony Kwong

    Tony Kwong Supporting Actor

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    I actually like Voyager. I'm not a Star Trek fan really. I watched a lot of episodes in reruns because there was nothing else on. I like it that it does not have huge story arcs and everything like that. I didn't care that the characters didnt change either. When there were DS9 reruns on it was very hard to follow. I did watch the first 3 seasons on DS9 when it originally aired and did enjoy it, but didn't follow up on it during later seasons.
     
  13. andrew markworthy

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    Um ... Seven of Nine, anyone?
     
  14. JustinCleveland

    JustinCleveland Cinematographer

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    Come on, it was 36-24-36. We all know that.

    Wait...
     
  15. Martin Rendall

    Martin Rendall Screenwriter

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    There were some plusses and minuses:

    In the plus column: 6 of 9 with the sound muted
    In the minus column: the rest of the show.

    [​IMG]

    Martin.
     
  16. Mikel_Cooperman

    Mikel_Cooperman Producer

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    Well, what Berman and Braga seem to do is come up with concepts and characters that sound good on paper but the execution is majorly flawed. They created Kess on Voyager and put her together with Nexlix but didnt know how to write an ongoing relationship so it went away as did she. Same with Tom and B'lanna. They never showed WHY they were in love, they were just together for the sake of it. Did we ever find out really why Seven and Chakotay even were attracted to each other towards the end of the series? They just pulled that out of left field and ignored the early plotlines that addressed the Doctor and Sevens potential.

    As far as the end of the show, not a bad last episode but, as most people here, that should have been the 4th or 5th to the last episode and then they should have showed them adjusting to earth but B&B were so against Ongoing stories that they took the easy way out. If you are interested in an actual resolution to the characters and their getting home, read, "Homecoming." Not a bad book. It's a two book story that takes place after the last episode of the series.
     
  17. Elinor

    Elinor Supporting Actor

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    Hmmm. I loved the series. I think I missed one episode in the entire run.

    Different strokes.
     
  18. Doug Pyle

    Doug Pyle Second Unit

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    I wasted some time (when did I have time like that???) awhile back trying to figure out what made good episodes good, and bad episodes bad. The most common elements were director and writer, in both cases. This is true across TNG, Voyager and DS9, since they shared from among their creative teams quite regularly.

    I think it is a mistake to dismiss either series (Voyager, DS9, even TNG) as a whole, since each one had stinker episodes, and each had great ones.

    While not a perfect predictor, generally I found the following writers & directors made more great than stinker episodes:

    Caveat - All IMHO! (and excludes latter seasons of Voyager, DS9)

    Best ST Directors, in descending order:
    David Carson (NG - "Redemption II", "The Next Phase", "Yesterday's Enterprise", DS9 - "Emissary", "Move Along Home")
    Reza Badiya (DS9 - "Civil Defense", "Life Support", "Paradise Lost")
    Jonathan Frakes (VOY - "Projections", "Prototype", DS9 - "The Search, Pt 2", "Past Tense, Pt 2", NG - "The Chase", "The Offspring", "Cause and Effect")
    Kim Friedman (VOY - "Jetrel", "Parallax", DS9 - "The Search, Pt 1))
    Gabrielle Beaumont (only NG, e.g. "Lower Decks" & "Face of the Enemy")
    Les Landau (prolific director, with a few stinkers, but more hits: DS9 - "The House of Quark", "Crossfire", VOY - "Prime Factors" & more, NG - "Sarek", "Time's Arrow", "Tapestry" ... but some stinkers: DS9 - "Progress", VOY - "Alliances")
    Cliff Bole (another prolific director, also with some stinkers, but moro hits: NG - "The Best of Both Worlds", "Conspiracy", "First Contact" (episode), VOY - "Meld", DS9 - "Defiant")
    Alexander Singer (NG - "Ship in a Bottle", "Descent", DS9 - "Distant Voices")

    Best ST Writers, in descending order:
    Joe Menosky (NG - "Time's Arrow", "The Chase", "Clues", "Cause and Effect", "First Contact" (episode), "Darmok", VOY - "Future's End", "The Thaw", "False Profits", "Scorpion", DS9 - "Distant Voices")
    Ronald D. Moore (only NG & DS9 - prolific, stinkers & great episodes, from hits NG - "All Good Things ..." and DS9 "The House of Quark" to DS9 stinkers - "Sons of Mogh" and "Rules of Engagement)
    Brannon Braga (also prolific, and unreliable with some stinkers as well as his hits: NG - "All Good Things ...", "Frame of Mind", "Cause and Effect", VOY - "Parallax" - however, I think he's been less effective in Enterprise which I gave up on awhile back)
    Michael Piller (also prolific and unreliable, ranging from hits VOY - "Meld", "Caretaker", DS9 - "Emissary" "Move Along Home", NG - "The Best of Both Worlds", "Time's Arrow", to stinkers VOY - "The Cloud", DS9 "If Wishes Were Horses")

    When Jonathan Frakes, David Carson or Reza Badiya directs, or when Joe Menosky, Ronald Moore or Brannan Braga write, there is a better than even chance the episode is a good one, in any of the series.

    On the downside, these folk I found reliably disappoint:

    Directors to avoid (worst to tolerable): Chip Chalmers (NG only, "Ethics" & "The Loss" among the worst), Paul Lynch (DS9 Stinkers - "Battle Lines", "Dax"), Rob Bowman (NG only, with a couple good episodes and but then there's pointless "Shades of Grey" and "Manhunt")David Livingston, who's great with SFX but directed stinkers like DS9 - "Sons of Mogh", "Storyteller", VOY - "Maneuvers", "The Cloud"). Also, Patrick Stewart is an outstanding actor (but directed NG - "Preemptive Strike" and "A Fistful of Datas"). Robert Legato (missed with DS9 - "If Wishes Were Horses" and NG - "Menage a Troi").

    Writers to avoid (worst to tolerable): Evan Carlos Somers (awful DS9 - "Battle Lines"), D.C. Fontana (imho! blameworthy for DS9 - "Dax" although acting may be the real culprit there, and for mediocre early NG episodes), Peter Allen Fields (associated with the worst of DS9, e.g. "Progress", "Dax" and "Duet", but credit for some great writing for NG - "The Inner Light"), Hilary J. Bader (for DS9 - "Battle Lines" & NG - "The Loss"). While Ira Steven Behr and Robert Hewitt Wolfe were evenly hit-and-miss for much of DS9 (both wrote for DS9 hits - "The Search", "Past Tense", "Distant Voices" and "Little Green Men", but then also wrote stinkers "The Way of the Warrier, Part 2", "Heart of Stone" and "Through the Looking Glass").

    My point? I really don't buy into the idea that a single ST series sucks (except Enterprise) or shines, but that each series had some stellar moments and some duds, often related to the creative team involved for the particular episodes. The acting was outstanding among the Voyager ensemble from the start, improved performances through the years for NG, and strong key characters of the DS9 team (excepting the always uninspired Daxes and irregular performances for the pivotal Sisko). DS9 was notable for the most outstanding performances for recurring supporting characters.
     
  19. Jason Seaver

    Jason Seaver Lead Actor

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    How could you tell? Honestly, it's not like they ever had any chance to show it.
     
  20. Doug Pyle

    Doug Pyle Second Unit

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    Mirror universe? [​IMG] Probably so. Indeed, I operated on the theory that what was good or bad in the Trek universe had more to do with individual episode's creative team, than any series taken as a whole. So, with too much time on my hands a few years ago, I rated the episodes and tracked each writer & director's score and sorted the results, using MS Excel.

    Yeah, sad, I smiled too, until "Dax" opened her mouth to speak.

    Regarding Fields, I wish he were responsible for more good DS9 episodes, because he wrote one of my favorite TNG episodes ever, "The Inner Light." Unfortunately, his first 3 efforts for DS9 were among the worst episodes of the first season. I, for one, was quite happy to see the mystical pseudo-politico-religious Bajoran episodes to fade away after season 2, allowing DS9 to expand creatively in season 3.

    I think Voyager has weaknesses, but it's not acting, especially comparing Voyager's series' opener against all the other ST first episodes - the crew (of actors) looked natural together and worked well as an ensemble. There were no weak links that would need a few years to find themselves, such as Troi, or Kira and Dax (who never found herself, even when replaced), or the linguist in Enterprise.

    Again, this is all in my humble opinion. Glad to provide a mirror universe viewpoint! Just see things from this different perspective, I guess. [​IMG]
     

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