HK AVRx25 Owners in DFW: Care to Test dts LFE levels?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Baldemar Garcia, Dec 12, 2002.

  1. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 1999
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If anyone who owns one of the new HK receivers would care to help out, I now have a test DVD that will check to see whether these new receivers still have a problem attenuating the dedicated LFE track on dts soundtracks. Please let me know, as I'm sure many people on the forum would like to know the results.
    BTW, I found that my Pioneer Elite VSX-33TX has a 6dB problem on this test. [​IMG] But my Onkyo is right on, thanks to it's ability to boost 10dB. [​IMG]
     
  2. Jose G

    Jose G Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2002
    Messages:
    568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Which test DVD are you referring to? I have an HK225 entry level receiver and I'm going out to get the S&V calibration disk tonight to use it for bass adjustment. I'm still waiting for the test disk from Stryke audio and heard it may be a while before I receive it. I've only calibrated the system using the internal test tones thus far and am looking forward to using the radio shack meter for other tests. I'm new at all this, but if I can help out in any way, let me know. No offense taken if you need a more experienced person or more powerful receiver for the testing.
     
  3. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 1999
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Jose,
    The test disk I have is The Ultimate DVD[​IMG]latinum edition. As far as I know, it is the only DVD that has level setting signals encoded in both DD and dts. If you are in the DFW area, I would very much appreciate your help in checking the AVR225. It just happens to be on my list of 'may buys'.
    Please let me know.
     
  4. Jose G

    Jose G Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2002
    Messages:
    568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Baldemar,
    I'm not near that area at all. I'm in NYC, so I can't help up close. I did, however, just pick up the S&V HT tune up disk which has DTS test tones. I don't know if it provides the level setting signals to attenuate the dedicated LFE track that you are looking for, but I'll take a look at it tomorrow evening and see. It's late, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to play with my system, but if I can run those tests from here with what I have, I'll be more than happy to. I'm expecting a stryke disk, also, but don't know if this will help out with what you want. If you explain how you tested for this, I'll look into it and try it with what I have- if possible.
     
  5. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 1999
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Jose,

    That sounds great. Please let us know what you find.
     
  6. Ronnie Ferrell

    Ronnie Ferrell Second Unit

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    355
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Baldemar-
    Have you run the test on a HK-520? Just curious. I keep reading the threads that say the 520 does "this and that" incorrectly but there are no post that I can find with actual numbers of what it does do.
    Keep me post if you get a chance to test the 520! Its really no biggy, because I think my 520 sounds awesome. I am probably a little nieve because this is my first HT receiver and I do not have anything else to compare it too. Maybe it would be best if I don't ever know what I'm missing! [​IMG]
    Ronnie
     
  7. Rick_FL

    Rick_FL Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2002
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    whats the problem with LFE on DTS? Last movie I watched in DTS was Goldmember, I had no LFE problems on my AVR320.
     
  8. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 1999
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ronnie,
    No results yet; still waiting to find test volunteers. I may go into the local Circuit City to see if it's testable there. After finding that my Pioneer Elite seems to be attenuated by 6dB, I'm about to just start ignoring dts soundtracks, as I'm starting to blame them for approving equipment that allows this type of playback. If their specs are that 'loose', I can't blame the manufacturers. Also, it seems the tweakable 'lfe' levels (separate settings for DD and dts) is a feature that's starting to become scarce.
    Rick,
    One overseas test report found that the lfe output on dts tracks was 16dB below what it should be. IOW, once the receiver's output levels have been set, playing a dts soundtrack results in lfe info being 16dB below the other channels. NOTE:this is the dedicated lfe signal, not the sub signal which may contain bass from other channels. To test this, you need a dvd with test signals encoded for dts.
    Sound and Vision:Home Theater Setup? and Ulitmate DVD[​IMG]latinum edition are two discs that contain the proper test tones. If you own either one, please conduct the dts level test and post your results. BTW, does the on screen display on your receiver allow 'sub' level setting? I've heard that using the ezset option from the remote doesn't cal the sub output. If not, how do you calibrate your sub output? The problem with people claiming their dts movies sound fine, is not knowing the source of bass for those particular soundtracks. Running 'small' speakers means routing lots of bass info into the sub, in addition to any LFE info.
     
  9. Ronnie Ferrell

    Ronnie Ferrell Second Unit

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    355
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Baldemar, you are correct, the ezset option only sets the surrounds. And you have to go to the OSD to set the sub level manually.
    I agree with you on the DTS standards.
    OT: One thing that I wish was more universal was what and how much bass information gets sent to the mains and what and how much in sent to the LFE channel. I am talking from the DVD mastering stand point. Take these 2 movies for example. Before I got my 5.1 receiver, I only had a pure 2-channel system with an active sub run off of my second line level outs from my preamp. I used my left and right analog outs on my DVD player. LOTR has a huge amount of bass in its left and right channel. It was awesome, even without the .1 LFE channel. AOTC has zilcho, nada, none, in its left and right channels. OK, maybe a little. But the opening flyby sounds like a crop duster in pure 2-channel mode. I was so unimpressed watching it with my dedicated 2-channel system.
    This was me the first time I watched the flyby in AOTC with the LFE channel.
    [​IMG]
    Major difference! Its sad they did not put more of the bass into the left and right channels for the none HT crowd.
     
  10. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 1999
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ronnie,
    Interesting observation on those two movies. You'd think everything would get 'downmixed' to the two-channel output, but it sounds like the lfe is left out, or greatly attenuated.

    BTW, I just noticed something interesting about HKs in my quest to answer my own question regarding sub cal. HK receivers have two sets of channel calibrations, one includes the sub and the other doesn't. Maybe the more 'tweaker' type which includes the sub is their answer for lfe compensation. It does store settings based on decoding mode (or none), so with a test disk it'd be an easy setup/test. BUT, only if this 'sub' setting affects only lfe data. AND, the levels here don't end up changing the 'general' cal levels that apply to individual inputs across the board. Something else I have to check.
     
  11. Ronnie Ferrell

    Ronnie Ferrell Second Unit

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    355
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    After I built my sub, I was also hoping the LFE was mixeddown to the L/R analog outs. After watching LOTR I thought it was [​IMG], but then I popped in AOTC. [​IMG] The .1 is dropped altogether. I read somewhere on the Dolby web site that just the L,R,C and surround info is mixed down to a DVD players analog outs.
    I was VERY happy to see that the HK keeps ALL of the setting for EVERY possible mode after you have set it up. It even keeps the settings if you unplug it! Its really nice to be able to jump back and forth from a movie to a CD and keep the bass where you want it. I do not care for exaggerated bass at all in any of my music, but movies are a whole different ball game![​IMG]
    Keep me posted if you find anyone in the DFW area that will let you do the test.
    rf
     
  12. Rick_FL

    Rick_FL Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2002
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    HK receivers will retain settings for up to 2 months I believe, if they are unplugged that is
     
  13. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 1999
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  14. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 1999
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  15. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 1999
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Lewis,
    Thanks for the heads-up on the S&V disc; guess I'll have to verify before spending the cash. You may have just saved me $18!
    I know for a fact that the Ultimate DVD[​IMG]latinum has a discrete test tone for the LFE channel. With it, I found that my Onkyo puts out the correct level dts lfe (with it set to +10dB), while my Pioneer Elite falls short about 6dB (with no way to correct). Both receivers were spot on with the Dolby Digital test.
     
  16. Jose G

    Jose G Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2002
    Messages:
    568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    "I doubt it has proper discrete LFE signal level."

    I know the S&V disk has the following options as part of it’s audio tune up:

    5.1 ch spkr ID
    5 ch spkr Balance
    6.1 ch ES matrix spkr ID
    6 ch ES matrix spkr Balance
    6.1 ch ES Descrete spkr ID
    6 ch ES Descrete spkr Balances
    spkr Phase check
    Sub level
    Sub crossover check
    Sub phase check

    If someone could describe what and how to perform the LFE test needed and if one of the above features from the audio tune up disk can help with this test, let me know. I'll be more than happy to do it if I can.

    I'm still waiting for the stryke audio disk, which I don't know if it will help out in this area or not. Another member on the forum is going to help me with the warbles and such on this disk when it arrives.
     
  17. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 1999
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, a little update that may or may not be relevant. I tested a 310 last night and found that the dts lfe level is 10dB too low. I had hopes that the seperate menu called 'channel trim adjustment' (or something like that) would actually apply its settings BEFORE bass management, but that is not the case. So there is no correct way to compensate for the dts error. The two level setting menus yield the same results; difference is, one uses the internal test tones (doesn't give one for the sub output), while the other is for using a test disk. Still hoping to find a local owner with a newer model.
     
  18. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 1999
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Jose,
    those testones are for the relative speaker balance output.
    This thread is about the LFE mix level,especialy for DTS.
    In nutshell,in the decoding stage of DD and DTS,there is a 10db boost,however while this is standard for movies,it could be excessive for music.While Dolby never advocated DD as a music format, DTS did,however when those multitrack cd's were mastered[especialy at the begining],they didn't "compensate" for the the boost performed by the end decoders[i.e your receiver],so the bass became "heavy" afforded by the playback chain.Hence the LFE mix was created[THX was heavily involved in this interestingly] to "compensate" for that.The usual settings are continiously adjastable,though it's max setting is meant for movies[+10db],it's minimum meant for music[0 or -10db depends on the maker's implementation.
    Now the problem starts with those receivers that don't have this LFE mix settings at all,and by mistake,the manufacturer sets the "default" setting as "music" which is 10db too low as opposed to the "movie" setting which would be just right.
    The best way is to test it is, to play a few movies with dual soundtracks[DD,DTS]and if you find that most of the time the bass seems much less on the DTS tracks compare to the DD tracks,then you could have a receiver that has been set up improperly by the mfr.Unfortunately,you can't fix that,the way it should be,you can only raise the sub's output,but this could thow out the carefuly mathed balance you were working on.
    Hope this help.
     
  19. Guyza

    Guyza Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2002
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So, from a bass management standpoint, the Onkyo is a better machine than the Pioneer? And the H/K still needs to be tested?

    The reason I ask is that I'm shopping for an HT rcvr and would like one that has good bass management built in.
     
  20. Baldemar Garcia

    Baldemar Garcia Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 1999
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Guyza,

    Comparing my Onkyo and Pioneer Elite would not be fair. The Pioneer is one year newer, and has more flexibility. And it's THX Select certified, which means it has more features.

    BUT, it also has the dts LFE decoding error, with no way of correcting it. The Onkyo does have an LFE setting for dts, which allowed proper playback.

    So, you really need to do your homework when comparing new receivers, especially as they drop in price. Seems manufacturers are cutting back on features that may be important. For example, the new Onkyo (this year's version of my old model) no longer has an LFE setting, so if it doesn't decode properly, there's no way to correct it. Since it's not practical to go around testing all these receivers before purchase, I think I'll just start ignoring dts capabilities, since most 'bugs' affect that format.
     

Share This Page