Game of Thrones Season 4 (news and episodes discussion) (1 Viewer)

[Josh Dial]

Regarding Robert's spoiler (I don't wish to break the spoiler system by nesting spoilers): while the end scene with Arya and the coin is among my favourites from the books, I wish they would have included the epilogue scene that Steve referenced, as it was one of the many scenes where I was good and truly surprised.

I'm not sure how I feel about Jojen's death. Part of me now wonders about the character's future in book 6 (recall that the showrunners were told by Martin exactly what happens to every single character).

Regarding Steve's spoiler:

Spoiler

We have indeed veered into Book 5 territory. Bran's "skipped" chapters were mostly history lessons about Westeros, the First Men, and the Children of the Forest. There is also a very good story that provides bit of history about Lyanna, Eddard, and Benjen Stark. Hopefully it can be told next season (as Meera is the one that tells it).

Overall, a strong episode.

 

[Quentin]

I actually loved that Jojen got killed! Finally, a surprise for us book readers! No loss...he was wasted space anyhow, but it was still fun. I really liked the Harryhausen-ish skeletons too.

I also enjoyed the Brienne/Hound fight - new and entertaining stuff. That got seriously brutal...but, not as brutal as Arya taking his purse and leaving him to die. I have to say, the Hound/Arya stuff in this show has been ridiculously well done. Bravo to Maisie and Rory. Arya is one of my three favorite characters in the books (easy to guess which 3), but the show has even IMPROVED on her. Can't wait to see what they do with her storyline in Braavos, because frankly, the books drop the ball.

I also have hope that Tyrion's further adventures will improve upon the book, bolstered by Dinklage. He was great tonight.

And, last but not least, it was nice to finally see Daenarys faced with the truth behind her conquerings: slaves don't know what to do when given freedom, and dragons are deadly beasts.

 

[Quentin]

To Josh and Robert

Spoiler

I think saving Caitlin for next season is a good call. They can throw the Hound in there with her as well...I'm really wondering what the show will do with them since we know very little from the books at this point.

 

[Josh Dial]

Can't wait to see what they do with her storyline in Braavos, because frankly, the books drop the ball.

Interesting. You are the first person (whose opinions I like reading) that I've come across who dislikes the upcoming Arya story line. In my circle of friends, there is an almost universally held opinion that her time across the Narrow Sea is a high point of awesomeness

Also, please tell me one of your favourite characters is Jaime (who is the best!).

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Brilliant finale. It served the traditional finale role on this show of tidying up after the climactic ninth episode and rearranging the pieces for the next season, but it also packed in several game changers.I don't know why I never seriously questioned where Stannis was going or what his plans were for his loan from the Iron Bank, but I was totally surprised when he showed up at the Wall. I always get a little thrill when the separate storylines converge or cross paths. And after having many of the big surprises spoiled for me -- Ned's death, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding and now Tywin's death -- it was nice to have a huge event that totally blindsided me.The fight between Brianne and the Hound was absolutely brutal. And then, as Quentin said, Arya taking his coin purse and leaving him to die a slow miserable death was even more brutal. It shows how far down her path that she's gone, that she could be so stone cold to someone who cared for her and protected her.God, Tywin's undignified death on the crapper was incredibly satisfying. Tyrion was very clear on the rules for their conversation, but Tywin just had to press like he always does, and this time he pressed too far. And then Varys staying true to Tyrion, ultimately having to flee because of it.Poor Shae. She misinterpreted Tyrion's motivations, and that cost her everything. First, it reduced her back to being a whore. And ultimately, being a whore cost her her life.

I actually loved that Jojen got killed! Finally, a surprise for us book readers! No loss...he was wasted space anyhow, but it was still fun.

What I like is that it opens up more possibilities for Meera. Until now, her role has been to protect her brother. Now that he's dead, she gets to make up her own mind and make her own decisions. That gives her agency as a character, which makes her more interesting to me.

And, last but not least, it was nice to finally see Daenarys faced with the truth behind her conquerings: slaves don't know what to do when given freedom, and dragons are deadly beasts.

I agree on the latter point, but disagree strongly with the first point. The South made the same argument during reconstruction. I think the point was that the situation is more complex than Daenarys's black and white worldview had permitted her to see. Some liberated slaves will seize their freedom and go far with it. Others will see their carefully ordered worlds upended by it. And it's not enough to destroy one system, if you're not able to replace it with a better system. And like so many conquerors, Daenarys was so focused on tearing the old way down that she hadn't given enough thought to what the new way would be. And she's dismissed the person who was best positioned to give her insight.I loved the depiction of the Children of the Forest. They seemed almost like a Victorian era portrayal of what a supernatural creature would be.Loved the ending scene with Arya finally presenting the coin to a Braavosi and saying the magic words: "Valar morghulis." I've been waiting for that scene since the Faceless Man gave her the coin.

 

[Quentin]

I agree with you regarding the slaves, Adam. I was being too economical with my description and I don't see the show taking a lot of time to explain the economic consequences of freeing the sole work force. So, I thought the confrontation by the slave did a good job of encapsulating the issue. And, yes Josh... Jamie is my other favorite. As for my opinion on Arya's path...it's not that I don't enjoy her moments. It's just that I feel Martin gets bogged down in too many details and day to day minutiae. He has fallen victim to "listening" to his characters and losing sight of the big picture. Sure, the Arya stuff is good, but this is not a novel series about Arya Stark. It is about her part in a greater play. In the first three books this was clear and her growth was dramatic, well paced, and eventful.

 

[Simon Massey]

I'm also suprised they didn't finish with the epilogue from Book 3 as it completely blindsided me when I read it, but I guess this show doesn't do cliffhangers like that and would have made the wait for Season 5 even more unbearable - in truth having read Book 4 and just starting the fifth I guess that can come up anytime in Season 5 they chooseDespite all the controversy over when the show is going to meet up with the books I think they will get two more seasons out of the current books ( bearing in mind I only just started the fifth) by which time I think the next book will be out for the following season - what they do then is unclear - Martin tells them broad strokes and they finish the show first or wait for Martin and produce films ? I can't seem them waiting and then being able to start up the show again but I suppose if it is still as successful they might ...

 

[Walter Kittel]

Now that the episode is over, I'll mention something that was discussed in spoilers, for those who have read the books, after 'The Mountain and the Viper'. Viewers with good memories might recall Peyter Baelish discussing death while at the Vale, which foreshadowed events in tonight's episode:

[color=rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif;font-size:16px;]“People die at their dinner tables. They die in their beds. They die squatting over their chamber pots. Everybody dies sooner or later. And don’t worry about your death. Worry about your life. Take charge of your life for as long as it lasts."[/color]


Solid finale tonight. Now our long watch begins, until next season. The series has pretty much caught up with my reading. I am undecided on reading books 4 and 5 before next season. I suppose I am trying to decide if the series will be more enjoyable with me 'in the dark' so to speak.

- Walter.

 

[Simon Massey]

As a side note, I love the continued bird's eye views of battle sequences that are beautifully done and really give an epic feel to what is happening - re Stannis' attack on the Wildlings.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I'm also suprised they didn't finish with the epilogue from Book 3 as it completely blindsided me when I read it, but I guess this show doesn't do cliffhangers like that and would have made the wait for Season 5 even more unbearable - in truth having read Book 4 and just starting the fifth I guess that can come up anytime in Season 5 they choose

Assuming the epilogue in question is what I think it is:

Spoiler

Michelle Fairley was released from her contract after season three. It's possible that, between her commitments to "Suits" and "24: Live Another Day", they simply couldn't make the scheduling work to shoot that scene for Season 4.

 

[Sam Favate]

A terrific finale to what is probably the best season yet for the show. The performances were all so good they ought to just cancel the Emmy nominations this year and give everything to Game of Thrones.

 

[Simon Massey]

Adam regards your spoiler I suspected that might well be the case and really it wasn't necessary - there was plenty of other stuff in this episode.

 

[Greg.K]

Great finale! I kind of got the hint that Tyrion was going to kill Tywin, but I still enjoyed how that went down. Wasn't expecting Stannis to show up at the wall.. and the Brienne/Hound fight was just brutal.

And now our watch is ended, until next year. Time for me to finally catch up on the books.

 

[Sam Posten]

I loved it. One subtle point: The episode is called The Children and everyone is focusing on how that means both Tywin's squabbling children and the first sighting of a Child of the Forest. But....

Danny is also dealing with HER children. Just as she is struggling with helping her adopted children of Mereen to cope with their new found freedom she is simultaneously putting her own flesh and blood children (the dragons) into chains.

Loved the wights. I thought it was almost a tribute to Ray Harryhausen!

Brienne vs hound? Sweeeet!

Regarding what happens in what books, this might be a spoiler to some of you but I don't think it is. Take a peek if you trust me!

Spoiler

Note that the curve of divergence across books is widening a lot this season!

Reddit discussion which likely DOES contain spoilers:
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/289skj/spoilers_all_heres_a_chart_showing_which_chapters/

I do wish that they hadn't changed the story enough that "Wherever Whores Go" hadn't gotten cut... =(

 

[RobertR]

The more I think about it, the more I think they blew it. Whatever Tyrion had done in the past, he was never one to kill someone in cold blood. Now all of a sudden he decides to do just that by killing Tywin in cold blood? It played FAR better in the book.

 

[Greg.K]

Haven't read the books, but having read what people were expecting I suppose that had been built up better in the books. I can't remember Tyrion even mentioning

Spoiler

Tysha

on the show and as a viewer I would have been confused at that motivation. Shae was a good motivation to use as we've seen that relationship over the seasons.

 

[Hanson]

How To Chain Your Dragon

 

[Kevin EK]

The last episode was quite troubling at times.

Not like the Mountain vs the Viper, which was just viscerally unpleasant.

I don't think Tyrion killed his father in cold blood. I think he was dealing with the open fact of his father's contempt for him. They played the fate of Shae as a tragedy, as I saw it. She really didn't understand that Tyrion was trying to protect her, and even Varys was trying to protect her earlier. When Tyrion tried to banish her, she took that as a betrayal and responded in kind. Looking at what happened in the final episode, it's clear to me that it wasn't Cercei who manipulated her testimony. It was Tywin. And from Shae's point of view, Tyrion had mistreated her and deserved a comeuppance. But Shae taking up with Tywin? That was really the lowest blow Tywin could have swung at his son. Particularly after all that talk from Tywin about Tyrion bringing a whore to his bed.

I think it's important that Shae went for the knife. Tyrion didn't go in there to kill her, and I don't know that he even went there to kill Tywin. I think he went there to confront him one last time. When Shae attacked him with the knife, it was all over for both of them. And I didn't believe Tywin for a second. At least not until his last words, when he showed his true colors.

 

[Quentin]

The more I think about it, the more I think they blew it. Whatever Tyrion had done in the past, he was never one to kill someone in cold blood. Now all of a sudden he decides to do just that by killing Tywin in cold blood? It played FAR better in the book.

He kills Tywin in cold blood in the book as well. There's really no way to twist it, regardless of the conversation or motivations. I'd even go so far as to say in the show you can almost make a case for self-defense in his killing of Shae. She goes for a knife, they fight, he kills her. Thin, but it's there. In the book, he flat out murders her in a fit of rage and heartbreak.

But, I think Tywin's murder pretty much plays out the same way. Would Tysha's backstory add more depth? Sure, but then we would have had to know about her LONG ago, with Tyrion mentioning her a few times over the course of the series and then having Jamie make his confession as he helps Tyrion escape. As far as that goes, I sort of like Tyrion and Jamie parting as loving brothers. I don't know what their future holds, but that was a cool moment.

 

[RobertR]

He kills Tywin in cold blood in the book as well. There's really no way to twist it, regardless of the conversation or motivations. I'd even go so far as to say in the show you can almost make a case for self-defense in his killing of Shae. She goes for a knife, they fight, he kills her. Thin, but it's there. In the book, he flat out murders her in a fit of rage and heartbreak.

But, I think Tywin's murder pretty much plays out the same way. Would Tysha's backstory add more depth? Sure, but then we would have had to know about her LONG ago, with Tyrion mentioning her a few times over the course of the series and then having Jamie make his confession as he helps Tyrion escape.

But that's my point. In the book, Tyrion is full of rage and heartbreak. He's just learned that his cold hearted son of a bitch father pimped out a woman who actually, truly loved him (the thing he's ached for all his life), and he's going to make him PAY for the pain that caused him. In the show, all we get is "oh dad, you never liked me". Much weaker. Not only does the book add more depth to Tyrion, it adds more to Jamie. He gets to unburden himself of this long held truth, and he gets to help alleviate his guilt over it by doing something major to help his brother.

This is the first time I've felt the show runners made a very poor decision in deviating from the book.