Game of Thrones Season 4 (news and episodes discussion) (1 Viewer)

[Greg.K]

But that's my point. In the book, Tyrion is full of rage and heartbreak. He's just learned that his cold hearted son of a bitch father pimped out a woman who actually, truly loved him (the thing he's ached for all his life), and he's going to make him PAY for the pain that caused him. In the show, all we get is "oh dad, you never liked me". Much weaker. Not only does the book add more depth to Tyrion, it adds more to Jamie. He gets to unburden himself of this long held truth, and he gets to help alleviate his guilt over it by doing something major to help his brother.

This is the first time I've felt the show runners made a very poor decision in deviating from the book.

Except as a show watcher, I'd just be going "Tysha who?" And in the show, Shae DID actually truly love him at one point, until she thought he had betrayed her.

I think the show gave Tyrion plenty of motivation to kill Tywin.

 

[RobertR]

Except as a show watcher, I'd just be going "Tysha who?"

That's exactly why they should have done a scene with Jamie and Tyrion where Jamie briefly gives the backstory, and tells Tyrion the truth. It would have taken what, five minutes?

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

The more I think about it, the more I think they blew it. Whatever Tyrion had done in the past, he was never one to kill someone in cold blood. Now all of a sudden he decides to do just that by killing Tywin in cold blood? It played FAR better in the book.

I thought the show gave Tyrion plenty of motivation. And Tyrion had made the ground rules for their conversation very clear: don't call her a whore again, or I'll put a bolt in you. Tywin called her a whore again, so Tyrion put a bolt in him. Tywin has always emphasized the necessity of following through on your threats, after all.At the end of the day, Tywin was the architect of his own fate.

 

[Simon Massey]

Personally I don't think they needed the backstory because of the change to Shae's character over the seasons and I think they were using her as a substitute. I think the backstory may have added to the motivation and would not be surprised if there is a deleted scene somewhere with that moment but they decided that what was shown onscreen up to that point was enoughSent from my iPad using HTF

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

As this Entertainment Weekly interview confirms, Charles Dance is pretty awesome. A couple choice quotes:"I’m not one of these actors that tries to find the good in a character ... If a character is a shit, he’s a shit, and you play him full on as a shit – don’t try and make him nice, you play him full on.""I just hope I get a state funeral afterwards as well. They should start season 5 with a great fuck-off funeral for Tywin."

 

[Josh Dial]

This issue I have with many of the plot changes--including the Tysha omission--is that it's a sign that the showrunners don't think the audience is intelligent. See, specifically, the change to Asha's name, for more proof in this regard. Yes, there are a lot of characters, and yes, a large number of them merely serve to flesh out Martin's world. However, some characters truly serve a purpose, and "doubling up" characters (Shae/Tysha and "Locke," for example) can often diminish some important aspects of the source material.

It's one thing to reduce the number of characters because of budget concerns (I hasten to add, Tysha doesn't even appear on screen); it's quite another when you are worried about whether or not the audience will be able to keep it all straight. Give your fans a little bit of credit.

Sometimes I think certain changes are made simply because the powers-that-be think their version is better, full stop.

That all being said, this was a strong episode, in a strong season. I think True Detective still has a lock on many awards, and this has, overall, been a stellar season for television overall. Thrones may have a chance a few statues, however.

 

[Kevin EK]

I don't mind that we have several interesting shows being made these days at HBO, Netflix and elsewhere. Frankly, we're getting more interesting material there than we get in the movie theater these days.

 

[Simon Massey]

Josh, for good or bad I don't think the showrunners are making the change because they think the audience is not intelligent - I think it's because they recognise TV is a different medium to the books, they have less time and you respond differently to the medium. You make the point yourself - Tysha never appears onscreen - so a few minutes discussing a character we never see ( and it's going to take a good few minutes for such a scene to work if it is to have any impact ) only really serves to repeat one of the function of the scene with Shae. Don't get me wrong I would happily film longer eps and include far more but it makes sense in the context of the show to cut this IMO. The only change that I don't really get this season is the one most refer to regarding Cersei and Jamie's scene in Ep 3. Other than that I think they have done a really good job.

 

[Hanson]

I don't mind that we have several interesting shows being made these days at HBO, Netflix and elsewhere. Frankly, we're getting more interesting material there than we get in the movie theater these days.

In my mind, TV has been better than cinema for years now.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Josh, you're also overlooking the simple fact that 90% of the audience isn't that intelligent. Sure, us here in this forum are paying a lot more attention to what's going on and get it, but we're the minority here.

I hear all the time from friends, and friends of friends that it's so confusing who all the characters are and what not. Ultimately the showrunners are making a show that will be successful across the entire spectrum, and not just the die hard fans.

 

[Quentin]

In my mind, TV has been better than cinema for years now.

Agreed. About 3 years or so now.

 

[RobertR]

Josh, you're also overlooking the simple fact that 90% of the audience isn't that intelligent. Sure, us here in this forum are paying a lot more attention to what's going on and get it, but we're the minority here.

I hear all the time from friends, and friends of friends that it's so confusing who all the characters are and what not. Ultimately the showrunners are making a show that will be successful across the entire spectrum, and not just the die hard fans.

I think you're making an unfair generalization. George Martin has introduced so many characters and plot threads, that anybody can get confused. That's why there are online wikis about these novels.

 

[EddieLarkin]

Apparently you've all forgotten the shows previous efforts to set up Tysha (efforts that now were apparently utterly pointless)?



Tysha is a character in the show.

The overall story shouldn't suffer because some members of the audience have a poor memory. As has been pointed out, this is the writers thinking the audience is too dumb.

 

[Sam Posten]

Agreed. About 3 years or so now.

Regular TV ended and Cable TV's dominance started on the airing of episode one of The Sopranos in my book. Is TV better overall than film? Not a chance. But it's getting better. Network TV still blows chunks tho.

 

[RobertR]

Apparently you've all forgotten the shows previous efforts to set up Tysha (efforts that now were apparently utterly pointless)?



Tysha is a character in the show.

The overall story shouldn't suffer because some members of the audience have a poor memory. As has been pointed out, this is the writers thinking the audience is too dumb.

Thanks for that reminder, Nick! That makes the Tysha omission that much worse, and completely unjustified IMO.

 

[Simon Massey]

Just asking but what does the Tysha omission add that isn't already there ? Tywin's treatment of him is already harsh enough, then there isShae - what else is needed here ?

 

[Sam Posten]

In a word? Motive. Motive for going up those stairs one last time rather than just hustling to Varys.

Now that the episode is over, I'll mention something that was discussed in spoilers, for those who have read the books, after 'The Mountain and the Viper'. Viewers with good memories might recall Peyter Baelish discussing death while at the Vale, which foreshadowed events in tonight's episode:

Hah, I noted the chamberpot one a few weeks back, but Arya Start notes a few more:
https://twitter.com/SassyArya_/status/478989910645301249/photo/1

 

[RobertR]

In a word? Motive. Motive for going up those stairs one last time rather than just hustling to Varys.

Exactly. It's the Tysha reveal that puts Tyrion in a killing rage, compelling him to seek out and murder Tywin.

 

[EddieLarkin]

Tyrion scorns Jaime for the 20 year lie, promises revenge on him, taunts him by telling him of Cersei's infidelities with Lancel and others, and falsely confesses to killing Joffrey out of spite (who in the books, Jaime has some feelings for). Seriously, imagine how a book reader would feel seeing THAT replaced with "Thanks for the rescue bro, ta ta for now".

Tyrion's trip to Tywin's chambers is out of revenge for the lie, rather than for sentencing him to death. Tyrion could have had a genuinely happy life right from the start, but Tywin snatched it from him for no good reason, and tricked him into hating for the past 20 years the one woman who truly loved him. He kills Tywin because he repeatedly refers to Tysha as a whore, rather than Shae (who in the books, by this point, Tyrion rightly couldn't give two s***s about). He leaves with the intention of one day finding Tysha.

So yeah, it's pretty different.

As for Shae, Tyrion kills her for her betrayal during the trial and for proving herself to be a gold digging whore by moving onto his father after Tyrion was doomed. In the show, he kills for what reason exactly? I don't know. The writers knew they had to kill her because that's what happens in the books, but they removed the reasoning. And then despite murdering her Tyrion apparently still loves her enough to kill his father for calling her a whore (again, despite that being what she is). That's just another thing they lifted from the book, but with enough elements changed that it no longer makes sense.

 

[Quentin]

Tyrion scorns Jaime for the 20 year lie, promises revenge on him, taunts him by telling him of Cersei's infidelities with Lancel and others, and falsely confesses to killing Joffrey out of spite (who in the books, Jaime has some feelings for). Seriously, imagine how a book reader would feel seeing THAT replaced with "Thanks for the rescue bro, ta ta for now".

Tyrion's trip to Tywin's chambers is out of revenge for the lie, rather than for sentencing him to death. Tyrion could have had a genuinely happy life right from the start, but Tywin snatched it from him for no good reason, and tricked him into hating for the past 20 years the one woman who truly loved him. He kills Tywin because he repeatedly refers to Tysha as a whore, rather than Shae (who in the books, by this point, Tyrion rightly couldn't give two s***s about). He leaves with the intention of one day finding Tysha.

So yeah, it's pretty different.

As for Shae, Tyrion kills her for her betrayal during the trial and for proving herself to be a gold digging whore by moving onto his father after Tyrion was doomed. In the show, he kills for what reason exactly? I don't know. The writers knew they had to kill her because that's what happens in the books, but they removed the reasoning. And then despite murdering her Tyrion apparently still loves her enough to kill his father for calling her a whore (again, despite that being what she is). That's just another thing they lifted from the book, but with enough elements changed that it no longer makes sense.

In the books, he kills Shae because she is a betraying, gold-digging bitch and he hates her for siding with his father. It is a slap in the face after hearing the story from Jamie about Tysha because it's clear that his father steals every chance for happiness away from him. In the show, he kills her for being a betraying, gold-digging bitch and he hates her for siding with his father. And, it looks a little like self-defense as well while not having the depth/poignancy of parallels to the Tysha story.

Does the book do it better than the show? Yes. Is it a big difference? Not really. Why any difference at all? Because they want a scrap of a little defense of Tyrion as a good guy. In the book it is clear cut that he murders Shae outright and then murders his father. In the show, they reserve a bit of a right to say Tyrion had no choice with Shae. He's still "good". Lame, but that's how TV/Movie protagonists work. Can't have them doing totally heinous things (unless it's Jamie raping Cersei apparently...).

But, for whatever reason, I think what they REALLY wanted was a fond farewell between Jamie and Tyrion. Why? I don't know. I don't know how it turns out. But, they wanted that moment and NOT the confession of Jamie regarding Tysha.

Tyrion does not kill his father FOR calling Shae (or Tysha for that matter) a whore. He kills him because he is a soulless bastard who cares nothing for anyone and has stolen away any chance he's ever had for happiness. Including Tysha...and including Shae. Tywin was dead before Tyrion opened the door. The semantics of the conversation have nothing do do with what Tyrion went in there to accomplish.