Freedom from HT amp's fixed bass management (1 Viewer)

[Lee Carbray]

I am not going to get into the off topic debate hear, although very entertaining, maybe I can help bring this on track.

Arup your are claiming that the you prefer your new set up. That is great. It sounds like some people are trying to point out some of the disadvantages of using your set up. That is great too. I think the constructive criticism has rubbed you the wrong way and the thread has gone off on a tangent.

My suggestion is this. Provide a frequency plot of your set up. The nay sayers are claiming you have a whole in your set up. Prove them wrong, or bite your tongue depending on the results of the plot.

 

[Dan Hine]

The nay sayers are claiming you have a whole in your set up.

Ehh...not necessarily. He could have a natural peak in the area that the dip is occurring, thus creating flat response. My contention all along has just been that as long as the receiver is told that the speakers are large then they are amplifying a full range signal which does not relieve it of the strain of powering low frequency information. Several others have posted good ways around this while still basically achieving the same goal (see page 1).

If anyone likes the sound they have, so be it. Some people want flat response, some people want bloated bass. To say one is better than the other isn't fair. So to say the sound is bad b/c of a plot that I or someone else may not strive for would also be unnecessary and highly subjective.

 

[Arup]

Lee,

I have never said my method was superior, only that I had better results according to my ears and the Avia test disc and my Radio Shack SPL meter. To plot a frequency chart would require equipment which I currently dont have. I just wanted inputs from others, but sadly it turned to be a free for all put down the person's equipment situation. If people would have stuck to the topic and not mentioned specific brand names, then I guess it would have been a very informative debate/lesson for me.

Criticize my taste and equipment even though one has no idea about what it is will get you my wraith in full fire.

 

[Arup]

Dan,

If the woofers dont have to move in the main speakers even when the receiver is set to LARGE, how can it put more strain to the amp as to my knowledge, it is the woofers which consume the maximum power. Logical, since it is the heaviest driver which needs the maximum movement against a very strong magnetic feild. So by shutting off the main tower speaker's woofers for majority of the low frequencies, the amp is not being called for bass duty. mid-low and high frequency consumes much less power.

 

[Lee Carbray]

Ehh...not necessarily. He could have a natural peak in the area that the dip is occurring, thus creating flat response

I was thinking of that but did not want to sound like I was taking sides. It may also be he has a dip in response and that is why it may sound clearer.



DISCLAIMER, this next comment is a joke and not meant to demean the Yamaha subwoofer or their amazing technicians.

The Yamaha sub is so good it must have Video Stage 5.

I could not resist. So much for not sounding like I am taking sides.

Seriously I think his view of bass is different then what we are used to. I am sure for music at moderate listening levels it would do fine. In a reference theater it would die.

 

[Dan Hine]

Because the speakers aren't requesting what information they want. They are receiving information from the receiver and that is all. The amplifier is still receiving the signal from the source (DVD, CD, whatever) and is amplifying it full range since the speakers are set to large. It doesn't matter that it is not getting to the speakers, it's still being sent down the pipeline.

Also, if I am understanding Dustin's post correctly, the pass through on the sub amp is crossing over the signal higher than your receiver would (around 120hz I believe he said). So not only is your receiver still powering a full range signal, but you're crossed over higher than you would be if you used the 90hz crossover in the receiver.

Is this bad? Not if you prefer it. But sometimes having a better understanding of what you're hearing can help you determine other options and in turn help you find what you prefer the BEST.

 

[Dan Hine]

Seriously I think his view of bass is different then what we are used to.

I have no doubt that it is. I'm not as familiar with music from India (which, I'm assuming is where you are from Arup, not just where you reside. Sorry if I'm wrong.) but music in Korea and Japan (the Orient in general) is soooo different than what we have here. The people that I know that have played in orchestra's there (or at least been there to hear them) say it's much more....rigid there. Everything is about precision and much less about musical expressiveness. The expression there is in the exactness. At least that is how I recall it being explained to me. Seems like that was a few years ago too...could have changed.

Also, the recordings of radio and various popular music from there (Korea in particular) is very different. Very hard to explain how also. You'd just have to hear it. Some of it is horrible, some of it is so incredible that I can't stop listening to it. Much like music everywhere else.

 

[Lee Carbray]

You could always use the freq sweep on AVIA and the meter to get some ruff numbers. It may not be as accurate as having the individual tones but it should be ok.

The worst thing in the world is to insult a man's speakers, no matter how diplomatic one tries to put it.

 

[Arup]

Dan,

I spend significant portion of my life in the US( 22 years ) and then went back to India. My taste in music is mostly western classical, 60's R&R and Blues like BB King and some Jazz( Shirley Bassey, Louis Armstrong etc.), Pink Floyd, Santana etc. I also listen to old Indian music. My knowledge is very poor when it come to Indian music and it is a fact I take no pride in. However from what I know, it is 6000 years old and has no notation system, it is carried from one master to the other throughout generations. It is much more dynamic than many other music and is definitely not rigid by any chance. There is massive variations in between regions in India as it is more of a sub-continent, rather than a country. For instance there are beats in percussion, which are broken into 1/3 steps.

My brother plays the paino proffesionaly in Germany and when he comes, we have a good time testing out the accuracy of my speakers with his intruments.

The method I am using to connect the subs is also suggested by speaker manufactrer, Vandersteen and Audio perfectionist magazine. It is the most preffered method for those who are into music rather than HT.

 

[Dan Hine]

Factor in the superior detail and pitch control of the three quick 8-inch drivers, (compared to slow big woofers)

The myth that larger woofers are slower continues to go around. It really makes no sense if you think about it. A larger woofer will have to move less than a smaller woofer to move the same amount of air. Logic would dictate that, if anything, a well made 12" or 15" driver would be quicker since it needs less movement and can return to rest "faster." But that is just the way I look at it. But then again, I don't own a successful speaker company. :b

 

[Arup]

The Yamaha sub is so good it must have Video Stage 5.

Lee,

Actualy it has a stage called brick shake where it turns my solid concrete house to silly putty and my windows shake loose from their housings.

2.800Watts+300watts soon to be replaced by 2x1500watts( YST-SW1500) in front and 2.800(YST-SW800)watts in rear.

4600watts of sub power should be enough for my non HT taste as long as my neighbors ask me the title of the movie I was watching last night.

BTW: this might help clear my view a bit.

http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr9.htm

 

[Dan Hine]

Conventional powered subwoofers receive their input signal directly from their crossover before the main amplifier. The sonic signature of the main amplifier that is an important part of the sound you hear from the full-range speakers is missing from the subwoofer.

But even then, the signal would be changed by the amplifier in the subwoofer. Adding another step in the chain pretty much always does this. To truly get what Vandersteen is suggesting you would need an additional amp channel within the receiver that powers a passive sub.

 

[Lee Carbray]

Actualy it has a stage called brick shake where it turns my solid concrete house to silly putty and my windows shake loose from their housings.

LOL, good one.

 

[BruceD]

It is the most preffered method for those who are into music rather than HT.

I'm sorry, but you are categorically incorrect on the above assumption as well.

I'm afraid you just don't have any credibility in the discussion of subwoofer use if you don't even know who Tom Nousaine is.

You also show your ignorance when you quote the ultimate configuration as one found in movie theaters. Get real, they typically have worse sound than most private HTs and as has been stated by others, rarely go below 30Hz in extension.

Arup, you have a lot of research to do, I would recommend the book "Master Handbook of Acoustics" Fourth Edition by F. Alton Everest. It will educate you in real-world acoustic phenomena.

 

[Michael R Price]

I think that this has evolved into a debate of principles, regarding how sound should be produced. I sort of appreciate Arup's standpoint (actually one shared by many others, except maybe for that much support of Yamaha's products)... that a speaker is like a musical instrument, multiple subwoofers are needed to 'fill in' the sound correctly, etc... but I can't corroborate any of it with my technical knowledge or the viewpoints of everyone else that knows what they're talking about. It also seems as if he is stating things about DIY and some products without any experience of them, just as some of us are discussing Yamaha products with little experience with them.

I must say that from what I know about acoustics, and electronics, Arup's arguments are unconvincing. There are issues of efficiency, box size, and low frequency extension; room interactions; and linearity that he seems to be skimming over a bit. For example, I would be quite surprised if the drivers used in Yamaha speakers were designed with anywhere near as much attention to low distortion as, say, a Hiquphon tweeter or Adire subwoofer. Then there's the issue of physics preventing the smaller Yamaha woofers from delivering their supposed performance. (And no, more amplifier power does not mean more output.)

It might be a good idea to stop worrying about the characteristics of specific equipment and continue to debate the merits of different bass management strategies?

Has anyone ever stated how much the sound quality degrades because of an ICBM or Marchand crossover? In considering an active biamping setup, I'm curious myself.

And, a really off the wall question: If you had some inefficient main speakers with enough displacement capability that IMD from bass was insignificant, would leaving some bass in the signal reduce thermal compression because of the extra movement in the cone? I'm wondering how much more thermal power a driver moving a lot of air can handle, versus one being driven at higher frequencies.

 

[Dan Hine]

It is the most preferred method for those who are into music rather than HT.

Well, I've never done a poll of the billions of audio users... but I know many people that do it one way or the other. I can't say one is preferred but both are extremely common. Like I've said, if you like it then it's not wrong. But if someone else doesn't like it, they aren't wrong either.

 

[Arup]

Bruce,

I dont care to know about Tom Noussaine as there are many like him all across the world. Do you know Lucio Cadedu? Would you care to know about him? I really doubt it.

Dynaudio speakers are very good but I had to post in that manner to get your response. Now I hope everyone will realize how passionate this topic is. Many including myself would disagree with you, but that is our personal choice. Just like the way you feel about your speakers, I do the same and there are others who like Yamaha as well. Majority of the studios across the world including the US use NS-10M monitors which are made by Yamaha. What Hi-Fi in the US gave five stars to Yamaha NS-200 and so did three German and two Italian magazines. They are also higly popular in Japan and the newer NS-8HX won the Grand Prix 2003 award there.

I dont have to learn what sounds good. My ears are my best tool so I dont need a book and my credibility comes from my personal experience. I have stopped listening to so-called self appointed prophets long time ago and have learnt to trust the data my brain has collected over the years. By depending solely on a book written by another person it is you whose credibility is under question. Cinema halls are there for a purpose and so is HT. It is the fun factor and presence and good cinema halls make sure that they acheive both in this day of 53" RPTVs and high wattage HT systems with house size subs. To blow them off shows your inexperience in this whole situation.

Michael,

Seems like you are doing the guessing game too. I have heard SVS extensively as they are available here with quite a few dealers. As for the materials, Yamaha has been the pioneer from the begining. They used pure carbon fiber for woofers in the seventies when the rest were using carbon fiber deposits and treated paper cone. For their woofers, they use spruce from their plantation in Canada which also sources their piano parts. They were the first to use berrilyum for tweeters and mids when only the Nuclear physics man had heard of them and this was in the seventies too. Learn to give the devil its due. I dont plug or support Yamaha, but when blanket statements are made, I have to counter them. Since you havent heard the Yamaha subs you cant make any comparisons. I can tell you this, those who come to the local Yamaha dealer here have done all the auditioning and it is only after that, they end up with Yamaha subs. All models including REL, SVS, JBL, Paradigm etc are available here so the choice is not a problem and neither is exposure.

Lastly I guess my method of hooking subs is the preffered one by Vandersteen and REL. REL is pretty respectable sub maker and therefore I take their experience over any pipsqueak who claims to be a prophet just because he wrties a book on it. As a lecturer in a university, I have seen many worthless persons write books and claim prophecy on a particular subject just to earn money and so there are quite a few examples in the audio world as well.

Thanks for supporting my standpoint Michael.

 

[Eric Kahn]

I will wade in and be burned here
I have a Yamaha yst sw120 sub that I bought about 7 or 8 years ago for my stereo (no home theater then) and it did a great job for music and the few movies on VHS that I played. My speakers then were infinity Reference 3's, which were considered bookshelf speakers and I think they sound great, my receiver was a radio shack AV-900, with 35 watts x 2 channels, not agreat piece but I got it cheap on closeout back then and it was much better than what I had

I currently have a Yamaha HTR 5150 receiver which is worlds above the radio shack driving Klipsch Chorus II mains, a klipsch KLF-C7 center (could not find an Academy) and Klipsch KB 1.1's for rears, I like the sound of klipsch speakers ( the older big ones at least)
I also have a Parts Express 15 inch sealed subwoofer that uses the Parts express 250 watt plate amp, it is a much "cleaner" sub than the Yamaha and has a lower range.

Owing to my mishandling of the driver in the PE sub, I have been using the Yamaha again, it will not shake the room (70 watt amp compared to 250) and it has port noise on the sustained low bass in some of the music I listen to (really bad in Koyanisqaatsi)

for some reason, Yamaha chooses not to sell their high end speakers here in the US, the receiver I love (even though I have the surround settings messed up)

as an aside, the best speakers that I have heard, in my opinion, are the Martin & Logan electrostatic towers, unfortunately, I do not have a big enough room for them nor can I afford them, nor can I afford the amp needed to drive them correctly

As for the DIY subs that allot of the people use, they are as good sounding as the commercial stuff at less than half the price owing to the fact you are not paying 2 levels of mark up and a lot of DIY subs are copies of commercially available units, we just cut out the middleman by building the cabinet ourselves

 

[Dustin B]

I have heard SVS extensively as they are available here with quite a few dealers.

That statement takes the cake as the fastest I have ever seen someone on this forum lose all possible credability. Took BobA many more words than that.

Who wants to email Tom or Ron and find out exactly how many SVSubs have been shipped to India? Oh, and can we have a picture of one of these SVS dealers in India as well Arup :rolleyes

 

[Arup]

This is for Dustin,

I live in Staten Island NY as well as in India. Due to my work, I have to do to and fro between the two countries. I have auditioned SVS subs in NYC and before you get all sarcastic and cocksure and call me a liar here is a list of dealers who sell SVS subs. The subs are imported through a third party chanel from Singapore and are not directly shipped from the US.

Pankaj Electronics.

26, Lamington Road,
Pune

[email protected]

Bercos Melody House
183 Connaught Circus,
New Delhi.

there are a few more but dont have them at the top of my head.

Before you challenge me and call me a liar, think of your credibility and BTW: you have never come across any Yamaha subs, that I can tell



I use the SPL as well as RTA as both are for measuring different parameters, o you bastion of ignorance defined. RTA is for frequency sweep and SPL is for volume, go back to 1st grade. Did you really go to a school or have you hunted moose and collected maple syrup all your life.

Eric,

Kinda unfair to compare a measly SW120. Check out Yamaha's 1500watts SW-1500 with 12" woofers and then we will talk bass.