DVI / IEEE For Dummies...Please discuss (1 Viewer)

[Jason Handy]

Hey all,
I have been reading this forum lately, and have found sporadic threads that wind their way to the topic of signal encryption (DVI and IEEE). This post is meant to centralize the discussion a little bit. And for me, to try and get some of my questions answered directly. As far as background for me, I am the proud new daddy of a Toshiba 50H81, but getting worried about this whole encryption issue. So, here are my discussion topics:
1) What is the difference between DVI and IEEE, and does everybody really think it will become ubiquitous among future HDTVs? If so, what is the timetable for this switch?
2) What does DVI / IEEE mean to the people who currently own a TV that can not support these formats? (or more appropriately...have I wasted my money?)
3) Related to (2) - what sort of hardware will allow us to view encrypted signals? Also, why are HDTV-ready systems especially vulnerable. It seems that we should be able to convert the DVI or IEEE signal with a set-top converter box and not have to down-convert.
4) Will ALL high-definition signals be part of this format or just a few? Somebody in another post mentioned that only pay-per-view and/or the movie channels will be encrypted.
I know I have posted questions but no answers. I am calling upon the very courteous and knowledgeable members of this forum to submit their input so we can all consolidate this issue on one thread. Thanks
Jason H.

 

[NickSo]

Im not too clear on this, but this is what i understand:
1) What is the difference between DVI and IEEE, and does everybody really think it will become ubiquitous among future HDTVs? If so, what is the timetable for this switch?
DVI currently is used in computers as an output for LCD Monitors and stuff. IEEE you're referring to IEEE.1394 interface, aka FIREWIRE. From what im told, Firewire does not have the bandwidth to provide full 1080i/720p HDTV Video. They are considering this as a means to prevent piracy.
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[Jason Handy]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but are IEEE-1394 and 5C-IEEE identical? Sorry if I posted erroneously about the firewire.
Jason

 

[Stephen Tu]

IEEE-1394 == "Firewire" (Apple) == "i.Link" (Sony) (IEEE is an organization of electrical/electronic engineers that publishes many other standards besides this one). It's a digital data connection standard. It has plenty of bandwidth to carry a compressed full 1080i/720p HDTV data stream, contrary to Nick's statement.
" DTCP " == "5C" (named since it was developed by a group of 5 companies), is a encryption/copy-protection protocol implemented over IEEE-1394 connections. It's designed to allow various levels of copy protection, from "copy freely" to "copy never".
"DVI" is a digital video interconnect used by display devices, and handles uncompressed video, carrying a lot more data than IEEE1394. HDCP on DVI is analogous to DTCP on IEEE1394. I think IEEE1394 is much more consumer friendly than DVI, since it is sending compressed data around which is much easier and cheaper to handle. It will allow easier recording and sharing of data between devices when allowed.
Hollywood is paranoid that their HD movies will become "Napsterized" and be traded rampantly on the net. So they want to keep the honest people honest by not allowing access to unencrypted digital video. This to me, and most others, isn't particularly bothersome, as long as they allow "copy once" type things for time-shifting purposes. What really is getting people bothered is that they want to "downres" any analog component video outputs on the associated boxes (meaning output only 480p rather than 1080i/720p), which leaves owners of current sets out in the cold, since they have no way to view HD on protected shows.

 

[Mark Zimmer]

In a word, we owners of HDTV ready sets are completely fucked.

Well, that's two words, but you know what I mean.
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"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."

 

[JohnnyG]

Stephen is right on the money with the important exception that downres'ing will only occur on material marked 'copy never'. Anything else is 'allowed' out the component video outputs untouched. The question is, what kind of material will be marked 'copy never'?
Keep in mind too that the downres'd resolution of 960x540 is still much better than DVD.
[Edited last by JohnnyG on October 23, 2001 at 03:50 PM]

 

[Sean_S]

I still don't understand why the ANALOG outputs have to be downrezzed!!!
Does anyone know of a recording device that has analog inputs? Is that what the content providers are worried about? As far as I can tell a digital copy is more of a threat than an analog copy. So I admit I understand the reason for downrezzing the analog outputs on a device playing back a digital COPY, (or a copy of a copy) -- they don't want you to make a copy and be able to display it in high rez. But why downrez the analog output of a satellite, cable, or OTA STB? What are you going to do with the analog output other than connect it to a display.
Anyway you look at it, by converting to digital outputs/inputs, they're opening the door for perfect digital copies of HD material. It just a matter of time, and I imagine a PC will be doing the job.
Sorry, just had to vent. If I've misunderstood anything, please let me know.
Sean

 

[Peter McDonald]

The copy protection will only be for satellite/cable. Not OTA.
Peter

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Peter, you are right about that, but what happens ten years down the road when everything is HDTV? Could I wait for JP3 to be the ABC Sunday Night Movie and cop it?
That was not directed against you, but should be food for thought.
Also, I don't know why but I can't help but think that the 'where there's a will, there's a way' saying won't come into effect and someone will figure out how to bypass it.
Glenn

 

[BradZ]

sean,
originally I thought the same thing as you about the analog outputs. as long as there are no recording devices with them, then what's the big deal?
I posted this on another board a while ago and the answer I got was that there are existing recorders with high-band component inputs. Granted these are high-dollar items which are in the hands of studios and broadcasters, but the genie is out of the bottle and pirates probably already have these devices or will have them soon.
From what I understand, no one cares if you or I make a copy of an HBO movie for our collection- it's those who make thousands of copies and sell them on the streetcorners around the world for $5 a pop. Now this isn't so bad with multiple copied analog VHS or VCD, but if these guys could be selling HIGH-DEF copies cheaper and months before the studios could put out the same quality copy- well lots of dollars to lose.
The real incentive for DVI or firewire is the ability to pass signal flags which specify how many or if any copies can be made of the signal. So in theory a digital copy is more dangerous, but if they flag that digital signal to prevent any copies from being made the MPAA gets what it wants. Digital copy-protection is supposedly much harder to crack than analog copy-protection.
Again the consumer pays the price for those who abuse the system. It seems to me the obvious solution is to price media much cheaper so as to take the incentive away from the pirates and the consumer.
hope this helps.
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zaphod
end of transmission...

 

[JohnnyG]

JVC has marketed a 'prosumer' format called W-VHS for years now which is a wideband, HDTV compatible analog format. W-VHS decks are around the $4-6K mark.
The hope/goal of cable and the satellite companies is to bring first-run movies to the home quicker than they can today. So, if cable was able to get a movie say, 3 months before it shows up on VHS and DVD, you could record it on a W-VHS deck and make excellent copies onto VHS, VCD and even DVD and flood the market with bootlegs before originals are even available.
Down res'ing is the answer to that. The W-VHS decks can't handle a 540p signal.

 

[GregH]

I heard a great lecture about IEEE1394/HAVi back at CEDIA by the VP of Mitsubishi. Firewire can carry about 10 HD streams simultaneously. IEEE1394b allows for many more streams and makes housewide distribution possible. Any given stream carries:
-what is is
-how to control it
-Copy info
In this scenerio the TV will actually be doing the decoding while a DSS receiver or DVD player will just be acting as a transport. Further everything is controllable via a GUI through the TV. With systems like HAVi this goes one step further and allows for better interfaces and more control options.

 

[Sang Park]

Hi,
I'm about to buy a HDTV-read TV right now, but... many articles about DVI made me so hestating.
Is there any DVI-equipped HDTV-ready TV rignt now?
TIA,

 

[Jason Handy]

Sang,
The decision is yours to make. There is much debate about how manufacturers are going to deal with incompatible products (ie models from this year and earlier), but nobody really knows how this is going to pan out. It is safe to say that the technology will always be improving and you must select a point to hop on the bandwagon. Whether we are approaching some technology plateau like the color television in the 60's remains to be seen.
My suggestion is that if you really want it, then go for it. If it is going to keep you up at night worrying about whether you will be wasting your money, then you should probably wait until you are a little more comfortable. By the way, what model were you considering? For manufacturer-specific info on a particular TV, go to the forums at www.hometheaterspot.com
The DVI/IEEE issue is also covered on that forum, maybe you can find more info to quench your curiosity.
Jason

 

[Max Jacobs]

Does anyone have new news on this subject? Hyperlinks to articles are welcome! I checked out HomeTheaterSpot (as referenced earlier), but didn't find anything recent.

Thanks!

 

[george king]

For those interested, there are several longstanding discussions of DVI IEEE over at the HDTV hardware section of www.avsforum.com
The loose consensus is that DVI settop boxes will connect to your HDTV monitors to display content. Samsung and I think a couple of other companies announced DVI equipped settop boxes for release later this year.
IEEE (Firewire) connections will probably be used to hook to recording devices like pvr's, D-VHS and DVD recordable systems, because IEEE carries a compressed signal.
My personal opinion is that OTA signals will never be downrezed because these are the public air waves and the government has always said the people have a "right" to OTA broadcasts.
The down-rez issues will probably only occur for 1st run movies and Pay-per-view events (e.g., boxing) on sattelite.
So if you watch a lot of PPV and special events on sat, you may want to be concerned, but if you watch OTA HDTV, I do not see this as being that big of a deal.
Of course, one way around this is to buy an HDTV (i.e., a monitor with a built in tuner). It seems as if several companies are doing this (e.g., Zenith) given their product showings at the recent CES. Having the built in tuner would negate any long term problems IMO.
Hope this helps.

 

[steven duch]

I cant understand why every HDTV hasent had a digital interface put on from the begining,it would only cost a few bucks.The good news is that 2002 models will mostly have these connections.I have been waiting for a good priced one.JVC are bringing 2 out in March,AV-48WP30 andAV-56WP30 they are 16.9 sets with DVI and priced $2000 and $2400.If they get good reviews I think I will pick up the 56" model.Rca will also have both the digital inputs on their new models.This should have been done a long time ago.

 

[VicRuiz]

Quote:

Not true. Constrained image will occur on ALL encrypted content ("copy never" or "copy once") that's transmitted without commercial interruptions. That includes all premium channels like HBO-HD, Showtime-HD, and any other premium movie channels thay may come in the future, not just PPV.
Content with commercial interruptions (like MSG-HD, Discovery-HD, etc.) can be encrypted "copy once" but cannot be image constrained.
OTA HDTV cannot currently be encrypted.
Image constraint is referred to as a picture with "no more than 520,000 pixels", or roughly 960x540 resolution. That is the maximum resolution a constrained image can be allowed to have. The final result could be anything under that number, including plain old 480i.

 

[JohnnyG]

Constrained image will occur on ALL encrypted content ("copy never" or "copy once") that's transmitted without commercial interruptions. That includes all premium channels like HBO-HD, Showtime-HD, and any other premium movie channels thay may come in the future, not just PPV.

Unless you make these types of decisions for a living, how can you possibly state this as fact? TODAY, all cable and satellite set-tops have the ability of invoking Macrovision protection to prevent copying to VHS or PVR. When has that circuit EVER been activated?

I'm not saying that your comment will not turn out to be correct, but it's just that - your comment. Not fact.

 

[VicRuiz]

Have you even read the DTCP Licensing Agreement? It states that if the content is encrypted in any way, it must be constrained via the analog outputs. It also states that programming with commercial interruptions can be encrypted, but not constrained. The points I mentioned in my previous post come straight out of the Licensing Agreement. They are facts, not opinions. Please do the research.