Discussion on the HTF article on studios dumbing down the DVD format (1 Viewer)

[Joe Tilley]

I don't know if I'm on the right track but,wouldent it cost more money to take the time to pan&scan a already widescreen formatted film.I'm assuming they have to take the time to do this at one point and time so wouldent a OAR film actley be cheeper to make?

Just a thought I may be missing something.

 

[Gregory E]

I totally agree with everything you said, Ron. I am getting so frustrated by this whole OAR vs. Pan & Scan debacle. I sure hope these uneducated people requesting full screen DVDs do not push the movie studios into releasing more pan & scan titles. Although in my adult years I have come to realize everything that happens in my country and around the world comes down to the almighty dollar. And I'm sure the home video market is that way as well. The fact that companies like Blockbuster and Wal-Mart have such a big impact on what movie studios release is a real shame. I really think the only way to overcome this trend is to make these stores and studios aware that there is a BIGGER segment of the DVD buying public who favor widescreen over full screen titles. And I think that includes educating people over the advantages of OAR.
I also think it's funny that more television studios are broadcasting more and more shows in widescreen. I mean, isn't that the direction we're are supposedly heading anyway?!? Widescreen and HDTV is the future. Am I right?

 

[Dan Paolozza]

Sorry, but Ron's solution sounds so utterly ridiculous to me. If P&S were "banned," I'd be just as pissed as if widescreen ceased to be released. There are people out there who want it, for stupid or decent reasons - let them have it. If I (we) can get our hands on widescreen versions at equal costs, and for the hard-core likes, get a hold of widescreen sets, then leave it alone.

If it's a matter of artistic integrity, the directors/producers of the film can decide that - they can negotiate wide-screen only releases with the studios. If integrity is that important, they'll give up whatever they need to in order to have an OAR-only release. But even the artist makes money based on video sales, OAR and WS - clearly, not even the artists consider their "art" to be so valuable that it shouldn't be butchered by P&S. Who are we to demand its forced demise?

Secondly, it makes money. And despite all the cynisism, not all of that money goes straight into the pockets of the studio execs. It pays for jobs, it pays for movies as well - allowing for bigger budgets, which allow (not necessarily ensure) for higher quality pictures. And there is no way total revenue would be the same or more in a WS-only DVD world as compared to a WS+P&S DVD world - or they wouldn't bother with P&S in the first place! There are people who might buy WS if no P&S are available, but there are plenty of people who won't buy the DVD at all - or buy a DVD player at all - unless they have ready access to P&S formats.

The only way for P&S to die is if it is phased out from either the "artistic" end ot the "technological" end. The artists, thus far, don't seem to care enought to force WS only releases of their work, so I'm not going to argue that. As more TV shows are broadcast in WS, and more WS TV sets are proliferated (and come down in price), WS will be demanded.

I certainly don't believe my Dad should have to watch WS, annoyed though he may be, because I know the value of it. If he's annoyed by black bars, and WS TV sets are too damn expensive, then he should have the choice to watch a butchered movie, of that's what he wants.

Now, if WS DVDs become as scarce as WS versions of VHS were/are, then you got me.

 

[Joe Tilley]

I totaly agree with Rain's last statment,If you dont think it's a fight that can be won than get out of the way,just dont try to take the credit when someone else done the work for you
Fear is what will win the biggest of fights, it makes you move keeps you aware that if you let your guard down the oppiont will get the best of you.
Dont stand with your tail between your legs sayin (well I think I can) you have to know you can if you put in the work to make it happen.Dont ever let em see you discouraged thats when they get the upperhand.

 

[Todd Schnell]

Great article Ron.

First and foremost artistic integrity should always be upheld.

Aside from that I think education would go a long way in the public understanding the benefits of OAR.

If only the studios would include a brief demonstration comparing pan & scan vs widescreen transfers on each DVD, then many eyes would be opened Imo.

I recently demonstrated a comparison of P&S vs widescreen to a friend who complained about "those black bars" & won him over.

"Wow I never realized what I was missing" he stated.

Much of the public just doesn't know what they are indeed missing.

I purchased 100+ DVDs in the last year or so, & all of those transfers are in their respective OAR.

I personally refuse to purchase a DVD that is not in its original OAR!

I believe the vast majority of us here feel the same way.

If it comes to transfers to DVD only being released in a chopped format, I will just have more money for my other hobbies.

In other words no sale!

I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that.

Todd

 

[streeter]

I think that most of the people posting here, including Ron, are totally wrong. I agree with Rich Malloy.
Putting both P&S and widescreen on the same disc, either by using both sides or 'on the fly' would solve everything. Yes, having ONLY widescreen releases would solve everything as well, but that is simply impossible.
REBUY VALUE!!!
I've said it many times, and I'll say it again: the studios are pushing pan&scan releases for their re-buy value. They only do it on 'hot new releases' like Lord of the Rings, Spy Game, The Grinch, etc. because these are the titles of which retailers will be carrying dozens, even hundreds! For every p&s DVD sold, the studio has a big chance for a re-buy within 5 years. People who The Grinch P&S today may very well buy it again within 5 years. Why? Because there is a (as I estimate) 50% chance that widescreen televisions will saturate the market in the next 5 years. The studios would like the eliminate some widescreen sales and releases for the time being, so that EVERY DVD sold has a re-buy value. However, they will only do that with catalogue releases very slowly, because unlike with hot new releases, retailers don't carry hundreds of them.
Rebuys mean a 50% chance of getting millions of dollars in 5 years for the studios as well as Walmarts and other retailers.
It's really this simple folks. I think that this is the reason for this debacle. Try and dispute what I'm saying - I hope you can, but I don't think you'll be able to.
All of you are so dedicated to getting this fixed, but you're all looking in the wrong direction.
pan&scan = chance of rebuy = millions upon millions of dollars for the studio

 

[Joseph Bolus]

I think that one point that should be made crystal clear here is that the consumer has a choice now as to what type of transfer he/she wants: A hardware choice.
If a pan-and-scan transfer is desired, stay with the VHS format. That's what it's there for.
If an OAR transfer is desired, purchase the DVD.
That's all Ron is stating when he says "Don't give them a choice." He means "Don't give them a choice on the DVD format."
DVD shines in the 16:9 digital environment. It can also adapt itself such that it can take maximum advantage of standard NTSC resolution on an analog 4:3 set. Surely, that's enough for this "digital versatile disc" to do. It shouldn't really need to try to "fill up screens" (even though a cursory "P&S-ON-THE-FLY" hardware standard was established in its initial specs). The VHS format provides adequate P&S transfers for the consumer that requires this type of entertainment. (And that's all that a P&S transfer does provide. It certainly does not allow anybody to actually view the movie.)
THE CONSUMER ALREADY HAS A CHOICE between the two types of transfers: A hardware choice.
If the studios had simply not bowed to the pressure of the retailers, by now it would be plain to any amoeba on the planet that DVD means widescreen and VHS means pan-and-scan.
And there would be no confusion.
And it's still not too late, IMO, to drill this into the minds of the consumers.

 

[george kaplan]

Huh? How was the Phantom Menace (released only in OAR and certainly a mainstream movie) a loser? I don't think the lack of a p&s hurt it's sales one bit.

 

[Matthew Anderson]

I join the fight against P&S. Widescreen is certainly the way movies were made to be seen and I hope studios will continue to release both formats at least, since we OAR enthusiasts are in the minority. I will never buy pan & scan.

 

[Rain]

Don't you naysayers see what you are doing? You are doing the same thing the studios have done. You are assuming that there is a bigger demand for P&S than what really exists. I think this is one of the points that Ron is trying to get accross.

I'm hearing many people say that those who prefer P&S will never change. In my experience, this is simply not true. Explain the difference and their eyes glaze over. Show them the difference and their eyes will be opened.

 

[Andrew_Sch]

I don't why everyone thinks J6P will have a cow when he discovers the grey bars on his widescreen TV when playing a fullscreen DVD. He'll just stretch the image to fill his TV, lopping off the top and sides of the movie.

 

[Rich Malloy]

I don't [understand] why everyone thinks J6P will have a cow when he discovers the grey bars on his widescreen TV when playing a fullscreen DVD. He'll just stretch the image to fill his TV, lopping off the top and sides of the movie.

Exactly.
And, likewise, J6P can now simply set his DVD player to "4x3 mode" and stretch the image to fill his screen from top to bottom, lopping off the sides. Same diff.
Except, for some reason, the studios aren't flagging their transfers for P&S-on-the-fly. The only disc I know of that's so flagged is the first printing of Criterion's "The Last Temptation of Christ".
[Except, in Criterion's case, any non-OAR option is considered a mistake, and thus this was corrected in the second printing!]
But, still and all, it allowed us to have an anamorphic widescreen transfer and it allowed J6P to to alter that transfer to fit his screen. No fuss, no muss, no extra expense, no picking this version or that version... just set up your DVD player as you like it, and every disc will play in the format you wish. All that's needed is the flagging!
And for this, I'm the naysayer who should get out of the way of your crusade? I wish you folk all the luck, but I fear your attempt to demand all-OAR, all the time, will end up leaving all of us in the lurch.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

I am still in the midst of reading all
the replies here.
Just want to mention that DVD ETC. MAGAZINE
(which premiers in May) will feature this article
in issue #2. Our cause will hopefully reach
thousands of readers across the world and further
attention to the industry.

 

[Dan Paolozza]

Don't you naysayers see what you are doing? You are doing the same thing the studios have done. You are assuming that there is a bigger demand for P&S than what really exists. I think this is one of the points that Ron is trying to get accross.

For me, it's still the same problem: if there's some people who want it, they should be allowed to get it. Why do so many people give a rat's ass whether P&S is available or not? If you can get WS, and continually support WS (teaching, converting, what have you), then why all this rucus?

Acting and reacting like the mere availability of P&S is the same as shoving it down your throat is, well, stupid. Worst case scenario is that it takes a few more years to change over all media formats to WS - and if you're watching WS all the meanwhile, why care?!

The bottom line is, all you vehemient pro-widescreen people are coming off like it is an offence to you when someone watches P&S. What a croc.

 

[Justin Doring]

A wise person once said, "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." As with nearly everything else, DVD is a recent casualty in the war between elitist bastards (i.e. people who know what they're talking about) and Joe Six Pack/Jane Wine Box (i.e. everybody else). The rule of 90% becomes more true everyday, and "not caring," which is what most are guilty of, is far worse than "not knowing."

I was in agreement with Mike Knapp from the very start in the belief that mass acceptance of DVD would be a double-edged sword. I now cringe when I see the people who are buying DVDs alongside me.

As far as filmmakers doing something about this, the fact is that nearly all simply don't care. Scorsese and Mann, two of the greatest working filmmakers, can only do so much compared to $pielberg and Bruckheimer who are busy turning out movies for the masses to watch.

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Beer Good
Pan&Scan BAD!

 

[Dwayne]

Great write up, Ron.

My guesss (and fear) is that the studios will continue to release widescreen releases, but they will also start charging premium prices for widescreen presentations again.

 

[BobH]

I hope I am not repeating someone but you should also include the argument that widescreen is the future of all televisions. So J6P that wants to fill up his 4:3 now will be mad when he upgrades to a widescreen sooner or later. Then there will be a bunch of 4:3 product on the shelves that will not sell.

For the record:

1. I will not buy P&S versions EVER.

2. I have over 300 DVDs and growing, so I am a serious buyer

3. I am going to complain to WallMart and Target next after having done so to Blockbuster(s). I complain when I rent and point out that I will not rent a title for that reason. I point out that I will not buy the BB used DVDs because they are P&S too.

 

[AaronMK]

Lou Sytsma's entire post, especially:

Let's make our voices heard but let's strive to be professional in how we try to accomplish that goal.

That is good advice that we should take. We will only raise people's defenses by insulting their intelligence, and preference for P&S is hardly a basis for that anyway. I think that going into this battle with that elitist mindset is going to get us nowhere

I'll admit that I agree whole heartedly agree with Ron's article. Being on this side of the fence, I see things the way Ron does. I'm frustrated that P&S crowd can't stick with VHS since it has catered to their wishes for so long, and stop ruining it for us when, finally, a non-niche format that offers OAR comes around. I am frustrated that the studios are stabbing the people who made this format a success in the back. I also believe people would have seen the light if the studios had held their ground.

However, if I was still part of the P&S crowd, I might find it offensive, as it depicts people who don't prefer OAR as the enemy of DVD, says that we know what they want and they don't, and has a tone that leans towards anger. No matter how right you are, people will reject your ideas, even if they know you are right, if you present them in this condescending fashion. For this reason, I hate to think of this article being circulated too far outside of the HT community.

 

[Bill Cowmeadow]

I certianly prefer widescreen presentations, but I can understand the general consensus that black bars are in the way. I work with people that just don't see the difference between what they might see in the movie theater and what is on thier TV. To them it's all the same. How do you fight that? But for this fight, I would be more than a little discouraged if I could not watch widescreen presentations on my 100" FPTV or my 32" TV.

Widescreen has to be made available, or I'll be pissed.

Bill