Discussion on the HTF article on studios dumbing down the DVD format (1 Viewer)

[Robin Warren]

I have purchased over 300 DVD's in the past three years and not one of them is Pan and Scan only...I will gladly avoid buying DVD's if they are P&S only and use that disposable income on some other hobby....Screw P&S and screw the studios who push it....

 

[DarrenA]

One other thing that was touched on slightly in an earlier post that bears some expansion is the lack of widescreen television sales.

I don't know how widescreen and HDTV televisions are covered by your local news, but here in Atlanta anytime a news story covers a consumer electronics related story, when High Definition televisions are still discussed to this day they always quote price figures that are four to five years old.

Just a few weeks ago we had a local tax holiday and our local news covered a Best Buy store where people were buying up computers during this tax free holiday weekend. The news reporter mentioned that very few electronics were tax exempt during this tax holiday weekend, and he went on to specifically mention that "it would be nice to save on the tax spent on a HDTV since they cost $10,000. or more". What?! If that reporter would have taken one minute of his time to walk back to the television section, he would see that HD televisions are now priced as low as $1,999.

It is this lack of knowledge and spread of misinformation that is scaring people away from buying widescreen televisions, and thus keeping the sales of 4:3 televisions too high.

 

[Rain]

When dealing with the general public, I have almost found it to be useless! Most of my many OAR discussions with customers have me shaking my head in disbelief and frustration. I can't count how many times a customer has said to me "That's stupid", or just looked at me with this "What the hell are you talking about" expression on their face.

Of course, because explaining it will accomplish nothing. You need a direct comparison.

Pick a film that has both widescreen and P&S transfers. Pick a scene that is particularly horrible in P&S. Show the scene in widescreen first, pointing out the aethetics of the composition. Then show the same scene in P&S.

 

[ChristianB]

Bravo! Thank you for that article.
We usually *only* carry widescreen titles for sale at the store I work at but ocassionally we'll offer both widescreen and full frame versions for sale on big titles.
I'd also like to see where the studios get their research indicating Full Frame DVDs are the preferred choice and outsell Widescreen versions.
For example:
Our prebooks for Ocean Eleven Widescreen OUTSELL the Full Frame version 36.4:1 so I am wrong here??
Christian

 

[Ron Dodolak]

To a much greater degree, the culprit you are looking for is no farther away than the local Walmart. By some estimates, Walmart accounts for as much as 25% of DVD sales. By corporate policy, when there is a choice, Walmart buys fullscreen because that is what the majority of their customers tell them they want. Even if a title is available only in widescreen, they buy less of it than if it were fullscreen. Often a lot less.

Maybe its time to bomabard Walmart with several thousand emails and phone calls like those that participated in the Disney phone drive.

 

[Martin Rendall]

Ron,

Your essay did a great job of defining your views, and what HTF is all about. Personally, I don't agree with much of your OAR viewpoint, but I'm willing to "go with it", because HTF means something entirely else to me: a great, and I mean GREAT, source of information on a variety of HT topics. I am happy to quietly absorb and disagree with the much of the OAR stance here, since my presence provides some value to your cause, which I'll happily trade for the priviledge of participating on your board.

But since you are opening a thread up for feedback, I'll also happily provide mine.

Personally, I love OAR. But maybe that's just because I have a 16:9 tv. If I had a 27" 4:3 tv, I'd probably want P&S too. Frankly, P&S is usually done well enough that you won't miss much of anything value-wise in the presentation. I can watch a P&S movie and be just as engrossed as a OAR movie. There are, of course, noteable exceptions, such as "2001", for which the widescreen presentation is central, but for many other movies, OAR is incidental, to me.

Now, the studios are trying to maximize their profit. They believe that P&S is the way to do that. Certainly, with widescreen releases, they have to contend with returns, and upset chains.

You are a lobbyist. Personally, I don't usually agree with lobbies, though they can provide some great social benefit, on occasion. Environmental lobby groups have the potential to cause great change and improvement in societies treatment of the planet. Should society tolerate the lobby? Absolutely. Should I agree with them? Only if I perceive a social benefit. OAR is kind of a trivial issue when compared to, say, saving endangered species.

So I want OAR... what do I do? I vote with my dollar. I own no P&S releases, and I doubt I will ever buy one. Will it be enough? I don't know.

Just a parting thought... a personal theory. Studios want people to go the theater. HT is a problem in that regard. With OAR releases (and lots of supplements to boot), there's less and less reason for the movie buff to go to the theater. The only thing going for the theater these days is the huge screen. Half the time, the movie will look and sound better at home anyway, even on mid/modest equipment. One simple way for them to attract the HT enthusiast back into the theater is to P&S the home releases. You want to see the proper presentation: fork out $40-$100 for a trip to the theater!

Martin.

 

[CameronS]

Pick a film that has both widescreen and P&S transfers. Pick a scene that is particularly horrible in P&S. Show the scene in widescreen first, pointing out the aethetics of the composition. Then show the same scene in P&S.

Rain,

I think that would be the ideal situation, but when I worked at those places, there was rarely the time or resources (like an extra TV and VCR) to demonstrate.

Actually, come to think about it, I've done this before. Of course, it does work alot better when you can actually show someone the difference, but you had to have the spare time from doing other worker duties to set it up.

 

[Chad Ellinger]

Once someone becomes aware of just how bad P&S looks, they won't be able to not see it next time.

I wish that was always the case. I've explained the advantages of widescreen to a number of people. Some of them understand the difference and still don't care. "I just want to watch the movie."
Your average movie watcher doesn't watch films - he watches movies. He watches them for characters, plot and dialogue, and he gets all of those on his entire screen with P&S. He doesn't watch them for cinematography or artistic vision. He doesn't care that half of someone's face is cut off for one scene -- he still understands what's going on, and he still can appreciate the movie.
Educating the consumer might not be as straightforward and simple a solution as it sounds.

 

[TheLongshot]

What I'm saying is that you guys are pissing against the wind with this "OAR-only" crusade. We've already lost. I'm convinced of that. There will never be an "OAR only" policy from the major studios for mainstream movies. You can forget it.

I agree. While I understand why Ron has taken this position, I don't think this will get what we all want, which is OAR on all discs. The studios will just look at that position as elitist and just ignore it. As much as we don't like it, P&S is not going away. You can't make it go away. There are too many people out there who just want their screens filled.

At the same time, there will always be people who want OAR.

Jason

 

[Rain]

At the same time, there will always be people who want OAR.

Right. And many of us will refuse to buy "modified to fit the screen"-only product. On the other hand, J6P isn't going to not buy Gladiator because it's widescreen. He may roll his eyes, but he'll buy it anyway if he wants it.

What the studios need to understand is the ultimate truth behind all of this: Releasing "modified to fit the screen"-only DVDs are going to lose them money in the long run.

 

[JenaroM]

I'm sure someone has already said this, but I'm at work and didn't have time to read all of the replies.

The worst thing that consumers don't know when they buy a full screen / pan&scan title, is that they eventually will have to rebuy it when they get their 16:9 TVs in the future. That is real business for the studios. Consumers buying the same titles again and again on diferenten formats/technologies.

 

[Lou Sytsma]

Aside from the OAR issue the thing that bothers me most is the labelling and stereotyping of the casual moviegoer.
I've really come to hate the term J6P!
It is a label that in HT circles has become synonomous with other words such as stupid, moron, jackass, ignorant, uneducated etc. It has taken on prejudicial overtones that I would like to believe we're all past.
Do you really believe that? Does everyone really believe that of all these people? I don't think one has to look to far before you're quickly proven wrong! Nor would one have to look hard within the HT crowd to find people that do fit the characteristics of a JP6.
Let's put this in perspective here folks! We are talking about movie watching here. Not feeding the hungry or helping the homeless.
To the vast majority of people watching movies is a casual thing. They don't need or believe in following a strict protocol to get full enjoyment out of a movie experience.
In a generation or so this will probably be a nonissue as the move towards 16:9 presentations and display devices becomes the norm.
In the interim we are best served by acting in a rational, mature manner and remain a vocal presence to the studios, the directors, and the retailers not to forget us.
Will we win all the battles? No, but by being persistent we can help hasten the move towards OAR.
Don't kid yourselves. This will be a long term battle. This issue will not be resolved in 1 or 2 years.
Let's make our voices heard but let's strive to be professional in how we try to accomplish that goal.

 

[Malcolm R]

For example, I hesitated to buy the new Mummy 2 pack the other day because The mummy was claerly labelled Widescreen, but The Mummy returns was not labelled at all.

All packages I've seen have either a big red sticker or a big yellow sticker on the front. One is clearly marked "Widescreen Version," one is "Full Screen Version." Given the confusion over some recent dual releases, I thought it was quite attention-grabbing.

While I agree with all the sentiments and points of view expressed in the article, I'm not sure "dumbing down" is the appropriate tone to set. You certainly won't change anyone's mind, or even get them to listen, if you start off by attacking their intelligence (or perceived lack of intelligence). The quickest way to get a person to shut down and enter defensive mode is to call them "stupid." Perhaps "The Growing Pains of DVD" or something similar denoting controversy, but not insulting all those who disagree right off the top (regardless of our true feelings on the matter).

 

[Christian Dolan]

I have a half-baked idea here.

If the studios speak only in numbers, then we should reply in kind.

Perhaps someone out there who is far more tehcnically inclined than I could put together a web page.

This page could list movies that are being released in P&S only. Next to each movie, there could be a check box. People who register on the site (like registering here on the HTF) could check the box next to each movie they will NOT purchase because it is not available in OAR (registration would keep the counts honest be limitng each person to a single vote per title).

Set up some kind of automatic tally system that calculates total number of votes for each title listed times the MSRP. Then, each month the site's administrator could send a running dollar amount per title along with a running grand total to each studio letting tham know EXACTLY how much money they're losing. If we reached out to the other online forums and consumer electronics magazine sites to form a kind of coalition for this site, I think we could generate some serious numbers here.

-Christian

 

[MichaelPe]

I really don't understand the studios...
What are some of the all-time best-selling DVD titles?
The Matrix, Star Wars Episode 1, Titanic, Gladiator, Saving Private Ryan, ... etc.
These titles are available in OAR only, yet the studios seem to think that the public prefers P&S????
Would these titles have sold more copies if P&S versions were available as well? Possibly. Looking at sales figures for Shrek, The Mummy Returns, Jurassic Park 3, Dr. Seuss' How The Grinch, ..., it seems that P&S is also popular.
But one thing is for sure: if these titles were available only in P&S, they would not have sold as many copies... that is a fact.

 

[Rich Malloy]

In a generation or so this will probably be a nonissue as the move towards 16:9 presentations and display devices becomes the norm.

I disagree completely.

16x9 is not a cinematic ratio (though it's close to 1.85:1). For movies, you'll still have black bars on the top and bottom for 2.35:1 films and (ack!) grey bars down the sides for all Academy ratio films. My prediction - and I'll put money on it - is that total acceptance of native 16x9 screens will not stop the practice of "formatting to fit your screen" and will actually expand such formatting to include 1.37:1 OARs by cutting off portions of the top and bottom of the image to fit the 16x9 screen.

Anyone who has HBO's hi-def channel already knows this to be true... and those folks are the early adopters who are far more likely to want OAR! Just wait until Jack, Joe and Jane Sixpack gets HBO-HD.

Face it, people. We're a niche market. And this should come as no surprise. I recall years ago a thread begun by Mike Knapp that layed out all the pitfalls of DVD going mainstream, and the sacrifice of OAR to the pan-and-scan preferences of the masses was Mike Knapp's prediction no. 1. Of course, there's a big upside to the mainstreaming of this particular format, but there's also a big downside.

So, welcome to the downside. Better think fast about how to preserve your niche. And if it's "my way or the highway", then you're gonna find yourself on a long road to nowhere.

We are no longer the majority.

 

[Rain]

Christian, I think that's a terrific idea. We've got to start coming up with more creative ideas to fight this battle. Alas, I'm too much of a technical doofus to set up a web page. :frowning:

 

[Chauncey_G]

Just adding my name to the list. I'll never buy a film that is not presented in it's OAR. It's that simple. If that fact means that eventually I will not be purchasing movies anymore, then so be it.

However, I truly don't think it will come to that. I think that we're going to see a kind of Dark Ages which will eventually give way to a Renaissance. Right now, people want their whole screen filled. As time passes those people will have 16:9 TV's as opposed to 4:3. Then they'll raise hell wanting to fill their screens again, and then we will see the resurgence of widescreen.

Those of us here will be able to say "I told you so", but until then it's going to be a hard time.

 

[Karl Englebright]

I keep hearing that directors do care. Aside from Scorcese (who is pretty vocal) and perhaps Leonard Nimoy, I haven't seen too many big name directors, producers or actors going out of their way to bring attention to the issue.

The whole argument about not having clout doesn't seem very likely to me. There are a lot of powerfull directors, producers and actors in Hollywood. Besides, these people aren't exactly known for being shy and "pro-establishment" either.

 

[Dave Scarpa]

I Still Disagree with the thrust of this Article. I believe giving consumers no choice is as bad as someone choosing not to put out a Widescreen version of a film. I agree with many here that the compromise is to include both versions.

That's an interesting word "Compromise" and I promise it's not a dirty one. One Poster summed it up, Alot of movie watchers are casual, they love watching movies but do not care on the technical merits. I've told alot of friends on the benefits of WS, they are not stupid, they understand, they simply do not care. Even my wife, she knows full well about WS, but she's not fanatical about it and still watches alot of Movies on Sattellite P&S.

By creating both version on the same disk or on 2 disk editions we do away with Retail and rental stores only carrying one version or the other. We also do away with confusion for consumers. Dual Releases only Guarantee that the Widescreen version will be hard to find.

If this all means a cutback in features than so be it. Give me a great anamorphic WS transfer with DD or DTS and I'm fine. Include a second disk for features and I'm better.

This is the Mantra we should be following. The "Ram Widescreen down their throats" diatribe will win us fewer allies and friends in all circles.