Can someone offer advice on my setup (1 Viewer)

[JohnRice]

Anyway, as David and some others have suggested to the OP, your speakers don't really need more power. Even if the receiver only can deliver 50 WPC, that's closing in on 110dB at 1 meter. Take into consideration the size of the room, multiple speakers and so on, you have plenty of headroom with what you have to cause permanent hearing loss. You can always add an external amp in the future, but that's way down the priority list.

To put it into solid numbers, your speakers with 50 watts are essentially the same as mine (86dB sensitivity) with 500 watts.

 

[John Dirk]

To put it into solid numbers, your speakers with 50 watts are essentially the same as mine (86dB sensitivity) with 500 watts.

So John, if I am understanding you correctly then I may be the one who needs new speakers or more power. My speakers have identical sensitivity specs as yours but the front stage is powered by an Acurus 3x200 and the remaining speakers by an Outlaw 7140. They sound awesome with good source material but I do sometimes have to turn the volume up past my comfortable 50% [arbitrary] threshold.

 

[JohnRice]

They sound awesome with good source material but I do sometimes have to turn the volume up past my comfortable 50% [arbitrary] threshold.

Please refer to my previous post regarding gain and power. What you are asking is there. You're still thinking power and gain are the same thing.

 

[David Willow]

If your receiver supports it, try changing the volume indicator from percentage or numbers to DB (Denon calls it SCALE). This way when you properly calibrate your speakers (either with room correction or an SPL meter) you will have a known reference. When the volume = 0 you are at 'reference level' (which is very loud but similar to what you'd hear in a properly calibrated movie theater). By saying your system is loud at 50% is no different than my amp that goes to 11. It is just a number relative only to itself.

 

[JohnRice]

If your receiver supports it, try changing the volume indicator from percentage or numbers to DB (Denon calls it SCALE). This way when you properly calibrate your speakers (either with room correction or an SPL meter) you will have a known reference.

David, are you sure about that? In order for there to be an established "Reference" level, then all source hardware, sources and media have to conform to the same standard, which isn't possible. That's one of the aspects of THX, so that once your system is calibrated properly, you have a known reference playback level, but only when you play THX certified media. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but different movies play somewhat at different levels, and occasionally fairly significantly different levels. Plus, I find BR movies tend to be different from DVDs and streaming is different from discs. How can there be a reliable reference level with all those variables?

 

[John Dirk]

Please refer to my previous post regarding gain and power. What you are asking is there. You're still thinking power and gain are the same thing.

Part of what has been confusing me is the unique power requirements of your Thiel's. Until I read an article on them today I wasn't aware they were notoriously power hungry and so I figured [since they are the same sensitivity as mine] maybe I should also be feeding my speakers 500 WPC. I continue to learn which is always my goal.

 

[JohnRice]

Well, I was posting a response and something went wonky with the browser and I lost my post. I'm going to head home and respond from there.

 

[JohnRice]

John, trying to boil things down again. You've talked about how you don't want to have to turn the volume up over 50% to get stuff to play back loudly, and that you believe that is a lack of power. Let me address that again. Power is how loudly an amp can cleanly drive a specific speaker. It has nothing to do with how far you need to turn up the volume, which has to do with gain. Gain is how much the volume is increased from input to output. I know the assumption is always that they are the same thing, but they have nothing to do with each other. If a certain source plays at a lower volume, you need to increase your volume level to compensate, but your power amp is capable of playing back at a certain "loudness", and that is the same regardless of what volume level you need use to achieve it. If a certain source or recording is mastered at a lower level, you need more gain (you need to turn up the volume) to achieve the desired playback volume. A more powerful amp won't change that one bit. When the amp runs out of headroom, it runs out of headroom, whether you are playing back a source mastered at a low level at 90%, or one mastered at a high level, played back at 20% volume.

I don't necessarily need 500 WPC for the Thiels, but it definitely doesn't hurt. I'd prefer to have the Emotiva's kilowatt monoblocks, but never wanted to spend the money for them. For you to get an amp that delivers 500 WPC at 8 Ohm, you pretty much have to go with monoblocks (two mono amps) which would cost over $2K, minimum. Emotiva did just come out with a killer new one that would get you there for a paltry $1.6K. Is it really worth it? Acurus is good stuff. FWIW, The amp I had for the Thiels before the Emotiva was an Aragon 4004II. Aragon was the upscale version of Acurus, both from Mondial Designs. The Emotiva is a better amp than even the Aragon was, at a significantly lower price, so it's certain to be better than the Acurus. If you have $1.2K burning a hole in your pocket and you want an upgrade in age, power and quality, the XPA-3 Gen 3 wouldn't be a bad decision. Just realize, it's not going to affect how far you turn up the volume. It might be more, it might be less.

 

[David Willow]

David, are you sure about that? In order for there to be an established "Reference" level, then all source hardware, sources and media have to conform to the same standard, which isn't possible. That's one of the aspects of THX, so that once your system is calibrated properly, you have a known reference playback level, but only when you play THX certified media. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but different movies play somewhat at different levels, and occasionally fairly significantly different levels. Plus, I find BR movies tend to be different from DVDs and streaming is different from discs. How can there be a reliable reference level with all those variables?

Fairly sure.... According to Denon. A couple years ago I had a THX certified Onkyo with my same speakers. I did not perceive any difference in loudness at 0 DB so as far as I can tell they are very close (if not identical)..

Other resources:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/‘relative’-vs-‘absolute’-volume-what’s-difference

https://denon.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/337/~/receiver-volume

 

[JohnRice]

David, that's not what I'm saying. You can only have a reference level if you know what level the source material was mastered at. You only genuinely have that with THX certified media. So, OK, the reference level is valid when you play something that's THX certified, but with anything else, you get what you get. I guess my issue is that first article claims all movies are mastered to an established standard. I find that isn't true, especially when going from one playback or streaming device to another. The also have to play back the media at a universally set level, which I don't think they do. Maybe things have become more standardized than I think they are. I just know that as I change from DVD to BR on my Oppo, to streaming from different sources, my volume fluctuates by a good 10dB.

I just suspect that's a bit of marketing hype that isn't entirely true in the real world.

 

[David Willow]

I see what you are saying John. Movies are 'supposed' to be the same but for everything else it is a crap shoot. And if your source passes the soundtrack without changing it in any way, it should match the calibration.

I guess my real point here is to try to get away from thinking of 50% or some number on the dial as a standard. It is not and could vary wildly from receiver to receiver. If you set the scale to Relative you at least have a baseline that should be similar on all decent AVRs. So movie A will play the same on all (assuming they are calibrated of course).

Just for fun if I get snowed in tomorrow I may dig out my calibrated mic and REW and play a bit. I can crank up the test tones in Disney's WOW and DVE and see how close 0 is to 85 DB (for my system).

 

[Bob Bielski]

I would suggest HSU. Dirt cheap and Killer. Big bang for the buck.

 

[Bob Bielski]

Listen to John he knows what he is talking about.

 

[JohnRice]

Listen to John he knows what he is talking about.

Sarcasm?

 

[JohnRice]

Movies are 'supposed' to be the same but for everything else it is a crap shoot.

It's been several years since I was using a THX receiver as a processor and my current one clearly isn't designed to have "0" be a usable level. I just recall there wasn't a lot of consistency in non THX movies, though it seems to be better these days. What annoys me is the occasional promo thing (usually about the disc's audio format) when you insert a disc that's a good 10-15 dB too loud. I swear I nearly roasted my speakers a couple weeks ago.

 

[Bob Bielski]

no sarcasm at all just respect. John you are one of the few people here that knows his shit.

 

[JohnRice]

no sarcasm at all just respect. John you are one of the few people here that knows his shit.

I'm never certain. I piss off a lot of people, it seems. Still, thanks.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Listen to John he knows what he is talking about.

Word.

 

[John Dirk]

John, trying to boil things down again. You've talked about how you don't want to have to turn the volume up over 50% to get stuff to play back loudly, and that you believe that is a lack of power. Let me address that again. Power is how loudly an amp can cleanly drive a specific speaker. It has nothing to do with how far you need to turn up the volume, which has to do with gain. Gain is how much the volume is increased from input to output. I know the assumption is always that they are the same thing, but they have nothing to do with each other. If a certain source plays at a lower volume, you need to increase your volume level to compensate, but your power amp is capable of playing back at a certain "loudness", and that is the same regardless of what volume level you need use to achieve it. If a certain source or recording is mastered at a lower level, you need more gain (you need to turn up the volume) to achieve the desired playback volume. A more powerful amp won't change that one bit. When the amp runs out of headroom, it runs out of headroom, whether you are playing back a source mastered at a low level at 90%, or one mastered at a high level, played back at 20% volume.

I don't necessarily need 500 WPC for the Thiels, but it definitely doesn't hurt. I'd prefer to have the Emotiva's kilowatt monoblocks, but never wanted to spend the money for them. For you to get an amp that delivers 500 WPC at 8 Ohm, you pretty much have to go with monoblocks (two mono amps) which would cost over $2K, minimum. Emotiva did just come out with a killer new one that would get you there for a paltry $1.6K. Is it really worth it? Acurus is good stuff. FWIW, The amp I had for the Thiels before the Emotiva was an Aragon 4004II. Aragon was the upscale version of Acurus, both from Mondial Designs. The Emotiva is a better amp than even the Aragon was, at a significantly lower price, so it's certain to be better than the Acurus. If you have $1.2K burning a hole in your pocket and you want an upgrade in age, power and quality, the XPA-3 Gen 3 wouldn't be a bad decision. Just realize, it's not going to affect how far you turn up the volume. It might be more, it might be less.

John. This is what I would call a "reference worthy" post. Thanks for taking the time to write it. Speaker/amplifier design and performance are simply not my areas of expertise. I can break down Internet protocols all day long but have a lot to learn when it comes to the finer points of Home Theater and audio.

 

[John Dirk]

I'm never certain. I piss off a lot of people, it seems. Still, thanks.

I don't know, John. It's hard to judge temperament without face to face interaction. I always say, "proficiency in a particular subject area is evidenced by ones ability to execute but true mastery is evidenced by ones ability to clearly disseminate to others."