Cambridge Soundworks TI500 lack of strong bass? (1 Viewer)

[Anthony Urzi]

Well they are behaving better at moderate levals, i need to pump it up and make sure they are ok at upper levals. It sound sliek they should be strogn enough to take refrence levals and NOT sound bad or be damaged by playing at those levals. I'll do some testing and get back to you.

It's funny hearing the ti500's sounding better then the mc500's, based entirely on the mid's and high's as they are identical speakers, or atleast are suposed to be, cept one added a sub and took away a midbass.

I went with the slate for all the speakers so it matches the tv and the amp. and the center and surround sonly avaialble in slate as was said.

I love the s300's though, nice havign bass coming from yoru rear speakers, often overlooked in lower HT setups.

 

[Tony Genovese]

Mike:

The finish of the MC500 is painted MDF, not vinyl. I have heard they may be available in veneers before too long. CSW has attempted in a couple of stores to sell them as a sub/sat but gave up because there were, according the Hyannis store manager, "No takers".

 

[Mike Sloan]

Your killing me with those typos!
I have pushed the T500's with the Earthquake Cinenova Grande to ridicules levels...and I never heard what you described in your original post. The specs say that 200W is Max...but It appears they can handle a tad more.

Off the subject...here is an interesting read by Fred Pinkerton of CSW regarding the mixing of high and low level input simultaneously to the T500:

The passive crossover network feeding the midbass speaker in the T500 incorporates low filtering. I don't exactly what the minus 3 dB frequency of the midbass acoustic system is. Let's call it 90 Hz. There is a signal tap-off on the speaker leads driving the input of the midbass speaker crossover (or, if the jumpers are not removed, the whole passive speaker array). After going through some isolating circuitry, this signal tap-off feeds the input of the powered subwoofer. Since we know the exact relationship of the midbass speaker and the powered subwoofer (their location in space relative to each other and their relative efficiencies), we can tailor the upper frequency output of the active subwoofer to exactly complement the acoustic low frequency rolloff of the midbass speaker. We match the relative rolloffs, the efficiencies and the phase. We do not provide any user control of this blend. There is a "correct" relationship and we provide it.

The fact that the sub is active and the midbass is passive really doesn't change anything. We always use the sub to fill in the low frequency signal fed to the mid bass speaker. As the signal driving the midbass speaker gets louder at frequencies below 90 Hz, the powered sub always tracks and fills in the passive speaker output. This relationship is not affected by what type of amp is driving the passive speakers or the type of speaker wire (at least to accuracies with a dB or less).

Then there is the subwoofer input. This input to the active subwoofer portion of the T500 is goes through the Bass Level Control and is then mixed with the "fill in" signal tapped of the midbass passive speaker input. These are both "low level" signals and can easily be blended.

In this manner, you can connect high-level speaker outputs to the passive section of the T500 and low-leve signal level input to the subwoofer input of the same speaker. We mix two low level signals at the input of the powered subwoofer. Everything works together with no short-circuits or fuss.

Certainly one hopes the phase of the subwoofer output is matched with the phase of the speaker output of whatever decoder amplifier you are using. Otherwise you would get a "hole" between the subwoofer signal and the speaker signal. But you would have this problem if you were using a passive speakers and a separate powered sub also.

Since you have an additional powered subwoofer:
I would set the main speakers to Large, turn on the powered subwoofer output and feed the output exclusively to the separate powered subwoofer.
This way, you would get a clean transistion between the T500's and your separate powered subwoofer at what ever effective crossover frequency your decoder provided between the main speakers and the sub.

The only reason not to do this is if you think you need the additional deep bass output of the T500 blending with the the existing powered sub. In this case, you would also feed the T500s the subwoofer signal. However, you will need to make sure that the separate powered sub is "in-phase" with the T500 subwoofer output. This would only be possible to do if you have a phase control on the powered sub. Adjust it for maximum output of the combined systems when listened to at your primary listening location.

If you don't have a phase control on your powered sub, I would just use the powereed sub alone and not feed the subwoofer input of the T500.
Since you can place the separate powered sub closer to a corner than you would the T500s, it is likely it will provide the strongest deep bass output.

If, on the other hand, your powered sub is less than 200 watts or has less than a 12 inch woofer, I wouldn't use it at all. The T500s are likely to do a better job on their own.

Fred Pinkerton
Product Manager
Cambridge SoundWorks
Fifth floor

 

[Anthony Urzi]

The internal amps on the 500's are 300 watts so the built in speakers should have been built to handle atleast that in my view.

The subwoofer I have has a phase control.

Thats kind of the problem i was having, the 500's were not blowing away the sub 200watt subwoofer individually let alone together. I didn't want to use the sep sub, I was just using it as a comparison to the T500's.


Thats a very interesting and usefull description of the relationship between midbass and the sub.

Whats the story with the passive radiator? Does it do anything acustically or is it just there to take up space?

 

[Mike Sloan]

Passive radiators are used in conjunction with an actual driver and its purpose is to replace the port or vent of a third order enclosure*. The resonant frequency of the PR is intentionally altered by the designer by adding or removing calculated amounts of mass to or from the cone of the radiator. The passive radiator is in essence a speaker without a voice coil, using either a magnet for resistance or basically just a cone resisted by the surround. Using the air movement in a sealed box from the driver, a passive radiator will move 180 degrees out of phase if there is no resistance or channeling within the enclosure. Adding weight to the radiator changes the resistance, therefore changing the frequency of the box.

* Third Order, or ported boxes take advantage of, and manipulate the rearward wave, giving either more low-end extension towards the bottom octave or more SPL in the lower midbass region by incorporating a tuned port. There is generally a 3dB increase in output compared to a sealed enclosure. Ported boxes give deep, powerful, full sound when designed properly. Xmax is reached easily below the tuned frequency, and high pass filtering is recommended.

I was thinking about what Mark Murphy said in an earlier post. Might be the way to go if the T500's are not blowing you away. (3)MC500's across the front...coupled with the SVS PB2-Plus...would be awesome!!!!!

 

[Anthony Urzi]

I've considered that config and was leaning tword sit untill people here in the thread started celebrated the power of the T500's now I'm not sure which is the better way to go. Being past my 45 days not sure how open my options are either

The MC500's aren't that expensive

maybe I'll sue the t500's as full range surrounds hehe...yes, i'm kidding

 

[Mike Sloan]

I played the T500's last night in stereo mode (full range) without the sub....and was absolutely stunned at how much bass they produce! My room is huge...being open to the kitchen and dinning room with 18 foot ceilings. I guess I still am shocked that you have not resolved this "lack of bass" issue...or have you? Make sure you are feeding a full range signal to the T500's. I don't know much about the Marantz setup...the Denon can certainly be convoluted!

Did hifi.com replace the original T500's you were having problems with? If so, the 45day trial period should start when you received the second pair.

 

[Anthony Urzi]

I wanted to experiment with the advice in this thread before formily requesting an exhchange. They (hifi) replied to my email by asking me to call the 800 number which I have yet to do.

WHat was the audio source/material you were using? Full range music like Tom Petty, or deep bass music like techno?

The only setting on my amp that has me a little confused as to it's affect is the bass peak setting. It's suposed to be the maximum bass signal it will send to your speakers, if I set it too high it pops the speaker, too low and I have no low end.

I do not supose anyone has a similer feature and the 500's and tell me how far they can push the subs before distortion so I know if mine are in that range or damaged.

 

[Anthony Urzi]

Here is a good example, Iron Maiden - Infinate Dreams

Playign in stereo mode with the sub active and RCA (so the sub in input control has affect) at moderate output (-20dB) i got this grating sound, i need to record it for ya, i had the input to about 5 oclock though so the sound matched tonally whther i had sub on or of fin teh amp so they sounded the same regardless of wire config.

i droped that back down to about 1 oclock, and now i can go louder before it distorts/grates

There it goes again, i droped it to no sub out it still does once the speaker reaches teh same output leval, about 2-3 db differnce

The example isn't workign out teh way i want it cus the SPL is killing the mic so it sounds distorted on playback even when it's not in the speaker....but maybe you can do somthing with it anyway, this is kinda what it sounds like.

thsi si a killer for speakers so watch your levals.

http://home.earthlink.net/~antimon/speaker%20ex.mp3

I'm onyl at -18 db here not even near refrence, and if i had the sony on, it wouldn't even break a sweat at this, definatly damaged voice coil or somthing I think

 

[Mike Sloan]

I pushed my T500's until I got "soft" clipping on a Earthquake Cinenova...300W/monoblock construction. No distortion...bass output tight and controlled....perfect! You may be clipping your Marantz A/V receiver...could it be a problem with the receiver? I thought you were already on your "SECOND" pair of T500's? Are these still the original ones that started this thread? There should be no "grating sound" from the subs. The speakers could have been dropped in shipment. The internal amps in the T500's have a soft clipping circuit which protects the driver from square waves/DC current....it does not sound like the internal amps. Send them back and get a second pair....if this is your second pair...I suspect the problem is in your A/V receiver...could you clear this up.

 

[Anthony Urzi]

Still the first pair, i didn't exchange them yet becasue i wanted to make sure it wasn't the amp or a miss wire config or a wrong setting.

Now I plan on getting them exchanged.

I do not think it's the amp because the same thing doesn't happen with the Sony sub.

I do not think i cna disable the bass peak.

So the speakers shoudl have protected themselves even if i was feedign them too much power and cooked them? My first major test i think was Terminator 2, and thats where i heard my first major pop on a big explosion, ever since then they haven'tbeen the same, I don't think i was pushing them THAT hard either. not like i was +18 on the amp....think i was still -6 or so

I'll call and request an exchaneg then, since we seem to be convinced there is a problem with the unit itself not the wireing or other circitry

 

[Tony Genovese]

Along with getting the new pair of speakers, I suggest getting a new keyboard. As Mike said, those typos are killing me.

 

[Anthony Urzi]

Ok return lables on the way, couldn't order a replacement, not enough left on the card right now, so I'll be speakerless for a little bit but it's ok

As to needing a new keyboard....*shrugs* whatever, not the focus of the thread

 

[Tony Genovese]

Actually, if you read your posts prior to hitting "submit reply" you can probably keep your keyboard.

 

[Jeff W.]

Ok, I know what your problem is. You have the high-level (speaker wire) criss-crossed (out of phase). The positive is going to the negative instead, and vice versa. This is cancelling out your bass. Try switching them and see if there isn't a DRAMATIC increase in bass!

 

[Chris-E-S]

I know this isn't the main point of this thread but with my Denon receiver I can select a +main mode which sends the LFE signal to the sub and also the whole frequency range to the fronts that are set as large. Don't know if you have the same thing but might be worth a shot.

-Svence

 

[Anthony Urzi]

No the problem is not LACK of bass in general, it's lack of bass before the speaker freaks out and distorts and sounds like it's about to die.

Sides their def wired in phase but thanks

 

[Mike Sloan]

Chris-E-S,

On the Denon 4802 and 5803.. the "LFE+MAIN" setting is dealing with what the A/V receiver is sending the sub only. If the Front L/R are set to "Large" and Sub is "enabled" the "LFE" is stripped from the mains and only the full range signal is present. The LFE+MAINS just sends the LFE signal + the "full range" signal minus the LFE to the subwoofer. The only way to send the Full Range signal+LFE to the mains is to assign them "large" and select "no sub" in speaker menu. Perhaps your "model" of Denon does it differently, but I doubt it.

 

[Chris-E-S]

"When the '+main' playback mode is selected, the low freq signal range of channels set to 'large' are produced simultaneously from those channels and the subwoofer channel."

Thats out of the manual, does that mean it just sends it to the sub or both at the same time? The receiver is a Denon 1403.

-Svence

 

[Jeff W.]

Well then you have the subwoofer (RCA) input wired out of phase, because either that is what is happening, or the unit is defective. I'd be VERY surprised if both speakers were defective - but hey, could happen... send them back if you have exhausted every method to fix the problem..