B&K ref50 vs Anthem AVM20 (1 Viewer)

[Chip E]

I was on the phone with Jerry in tech support at B&K within 30 seconds of calling. He stayed with me longer than i even really wanted to talk ! LOL.. Yes, there email is nonexistant but, when i call B&K, they are always right there for whatever i need to talk about. Not to mention, the product speaks for itself. In my case a Ref50 & Ref200.5 amp.

 

[rajiv]

What's the noise floor of these processors? I think that a lower noise floor will make an audible difference.

 

[Yogi]

In that regard I think they are both quite quiet.

 

[rajiv]

Anthem AVM20
Channel Separation: 82dB
S/N Ratio: 102dB (digital input)
B&K Ref.50
Channel Separation: ???
S/N Ratio: 89dB
Lexicon MC-12B
Channel Separation: ???
S/N Ratio: >108dB
Proceed AVP2
Channel Separation: >100dB
S/N Ratio: 105dB
It seems that the Anthem AVM20 is a really good deal. Its the most bang for the buck.

 

[Jerry Klawiter]

B&K Ref.50
S/N Ratio: 98dB CCIR 2k Weighted in the users guide pg78
This is a spec I don't place much into.
If you can hear the difference, Bravo, but my 41+ year old ears can not

 

[Mifr44]

"S/N Ratio: 98dB CCIR 2k Weighted in the users guide pg78"
That seems to be more reasonable based on my auditions of the Ref30 and Ref50, vs. the usual 89dB that is equated with these two processors.
"If you can hear the difference, Bravo, but my 41+ year old ears can not"
The ears of my wife and I could hear the difference, but oddly it didn't seem to have a direct correlation to the S/N numbers. Meaning that the "better" S/Ns didn't necessarily sound "better". I'll stick with my belief of system component synergy.
Michael

 

[rajiv]

S/N Ratio and Channel Separation are just one of the many factors that goes into consideration while selecting processors. Its not the only criteria, but it is important. If you don't have amplification that can match the processor or speakers that don't have sufficient dynamic range, then it doesn't make a whole lot of difference in your processor. So you've got think about, as the previous post said, the total synergy of your audio system.

A side note, on the surface, the B&K Ref.50 seems to have the same specifications as the Ref.30, except of course it has newer sound processing capability. You would have thought that B&K would have improved the audio characteristics and put it into their current information. I've not heard the Ref.50, but have listened extensively to the Ref.30 and Anthem AVM20. In my opinion, I would prefer the AVM20 over the Ref.30 if the diffference was a few hundred dollars. After that I would consider the Lexicon MC-12 or Proceed AVP2.

 

[Yogi]

You also have to remember that beyond a S/N ratio of 98db or so you have to have extremely quiet background to hear any difference. Even 98 db is pushing it. I live out in the woods with constant noise of crickets in the night and I bet anyone if he/she can hear a difference between a 98db S/N vs a 120+db S/N in my listening room. So while those specs look fantastic on paper they dont mean squat in most but the best of listening environments. So once again I would place emphasis on sound and system synergy more than SNR or THD or a multitude of other specs on paper.

My 2 cents.

 

[rajiv]

A 6dB change is noticeable to almost everyone. Remember, dB is a logarithmic scale. A higher S/N ratio means you will be able to make out the subtle differences in the sound stage, it doesn't have anything to do with your environment unless your room is too noisy to hear anything anyways. It does mean something when all else in your system is the same, otherwise there would be no need for this thread topic at all. If you want the most bang for your buck, the Ref.50 is the way to go, iff you can spare a few hundered dollars more look at the AVM20. This not to take away from listening to processors and seeing how they will work in your setup.

 

[Yogi]

unless your room is too noisy to hear anything anyways.

We are not talking absolute 6db change but a change in SNR. So you are telling me you can hear a difference between 100db SNR and 106db SNR when the ambient noise level is 30db or so (typical quiet room level)? If you can, I salute you. Also remember the 6db change you are talking about has to do with where the 6db change is occuring. Any one could tell the difference between 80db and 86db SNR change. Not many people will be able to tell the difference between 100 and 106db SNR change and probably none of us will be able to tell the difference between 120 and 126db SNR change. So your general statement is not as general as you think.
The SNR has everything to do with the ambient room noise and it doesn't really have to be "too noisy to hear anything". An average household room will mask out any low level details beyond about 98-100db so a SNR beyond 100 or 106db doesn't mean much for most of us.

 

[Jerry Klawiter]

I also still own the Denon AVR 5700 receiver.
The receiver had about the best S/N Ratio during it's time.
It's still very good in many other area's also.
It's better then BOTH the AVM20 and the Ref 50 if you only look at numbers, just one is it's S/N Ratio: 105dB!
Can I hear this difference? No,
Would you like to trade your AVM20 for my 5700 based that it's S/N Ratio is 105dB
I would think not.
Much more comes into play then a few numbers that may or may not be true, The Denon numbers have been verified by several labs, at times understated.

People need to hear them both within their own homes to make the correct decision.

 

[rajiv]

If your ambient noise level in your room is 30db, then you are correct about not hearing a 6dB change. I know the room I listen in and its well below 20db and in dedicated rooms the ambient noise level is below 8dB.

Manufacturers typically state S/N at 1KHz - their best results. Across 20Hz-20KHz the S/N will vary and some processors will be better than others. Thats why its important to listen first.

Not to change the subject, but its also important to evaluate channel separation. I couldn't get any info about the Ref.50, but Anthem does state theirs.

 

[Yogi]

I know the room I listen in and its well below 20db and in dedicated rooms the ambient noise level is below 8dB.

From my chart of ambient noise levels. It states that human threshold of hearing is 10 db so having a dedicated room with noise levels below 8 db is redundant, IMHO. Also it states that movie soundstages (where mixing occurs) is little less than 20db. So I guess your room being well below 20db ambient is quite out of the ordinary and I am afraid most of us dont have the luxury of having such excellent soundproofed rooms to listen in. The chart states that a typical country residence has an ambient level of 30db so you must be living farther than countryside ar must have gone to great lengths to soundproof your room. Actually the sound of wind blowing (from inside a house) is around 25db. So I guess where you live is exceptionally quiet. I might think of buying some property in your area when I retire so I can tell the difference between 120 and 126db SNR.

 

[rajiv]

Yogi,
No reason to be sarcastic. I don't know where you are getting your data from, but I disagree with it.
Human hearing threshold is 0dB.
Recording studio ambient noise is less than 10db.
Typical quiet living room is less than 20db.
A 30dB ambient noise level seems too high and I would wager its much less than that in your listening room. If I decide to visit Madrigal Audio Labs in Middletown, CT, I might drop you message.
I never said I could tell the difference between 120 to 126dB S/N, but I could tell the difference between the Ref.30 and AVM20 given comprable setups. The AVM is better. I would attribute it to a better S/N and good channel separation. Given the similarities between the Ref.30 and Ref.50 and the similar specs, it leads you to believe that they are sonically the same.

 

[Yogi]

Here it is:
http://www.awionline.org/whales/lfa/...r-dB-Table.xls
If I were a DBT advocate then I would ask you if you could tell the difference between the Ref 50 and the AVM 20 in a properly level matched DBT test? But thank goodness I am not
Anyway its good that you can tell the difference between 98 and 103db SNR. But your plain statement that the AVM is better because of better channel separation and SNR could be misconstrued as meaning that SNR and channel separation are indicators of good sound when infact they are not.
I can give you plenty of examples where a lower SNR component sounds much better than a high SNR component. Take for example the Proceed HPA2 (SNR > 80db) and the Rotel 1090 (SNR > 125db). The Proceed sounds much better than the Rotel and can retrieve much better low level details and has a much more extended topend and has a much wider soundstage projections and image specificity. So making a general statement that the AVM sounds better then the Ref50 because of higher SNR and better channel separation is very misguiding.

 

[Mifr44]

"So making a general statement that the AVM sounds better then the Ref50 because of higher SNR and better channel separation is very misguiding."

Agreed. I have also seen the same types of comparisons with 18-bit CDPs vs. 20-bit or 24-bit CDPs, where the 18-bit versions in some cases were the more musical of the lot despite having "inferior" specs.

Michael

 

[rajiv]

Yogi,

Thanks for the chart. It seems different from what I've crudely measured and other sources I've seen that have stated quiet rooms at 20dB SPL. If I have time, then I'll contact an audiologist for accurate info.

Making a comparison between Proceed and Rotel is a mistake. Proceed has a history and reputation of underestimating performance. I own Proceed amps and processors and I know this very well. However, Anthem and B&K are comparable in terms of reputation. Both are good companies. In this instance of comparing these two particular processors, channel separation and SNR are in fact important and it IS an indicator of performance, but not the only indicator.

 

[John.Meer]

Another reference is Everest's The Master Handbook of Acoustics. It lists SPL, decibels, A-weighted, and I quote/paraphrase out of Table 2-5:

Good ears at the frequency of maximum sensitivity at 10
Really, really good ears at 0
Leaves rustling at 20
Typical recording studio at 30 and
Quiet residence at 40

The modern world is a noisy place.

 

[rajiv]

On the next page of Everest's book (p.27), it indicates the background noise in a recording studio is about 20dB.
These figures are all quite conservative.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

I can't believe y'all are arguing about *published* specs. I wouldn't put much credence into either figure unless tested by an independent 3rd party under the exact same conditions.
Or, unless you have extensively listened to each piece in your own setup, and have been able to directly compare the noise levels under the same set of circumstances...