An Ethical Question (1 Viewer)

[David_Larkins]

I realize that it takes volume of sales to give dealers the ability to sell for less. Like I said before it's the disparity of the prices that bothers me. Because of a local dealer's lower volume his price should be 10's of dollars more - not 100's of dollars more! If there is that big a difference in a smaller dealer's price then maybe it's the wholesalers that are putting local dealers out of business instead of browsers!

Like I said - I appreciate that local dealers have to charge a little more to stay in business because of the lower volume. But by the same token, I'm not going to stop by my local audio shop and just give the guy 100 bucks for nothing since he's only had one sale this month!

 

[KeithR]

Alright, this thread is going nowhere and is so off topic of the original question.

My point is that i feel it is unethical to knowingly walk into a store and use them to audition speakers/equp that you know in advance that you will search a'gon for a used pair and have no intention of buying from that store.

This is different from going to different stores to find better pricing/service, and is really more focused on hi end stuff rather than receivers that you can buy online probably easier than in a store (do i really want to go to Best Buy??).

Aaron,

Believe it or not, trade-ins aren't that widely accepted where I have been (two major cities), and 25 cts on the dollar is what I have been quoted. Even Sound by Singer (one of the largest adn most profitable dealers in the NE, if not the US) brags about giving up to 40cts on the dollar--in every stereophile mag if you want to see.

Thanks for the psychoanalysis on my relationship capability (this is out in left field, and you have no clue regarding what you are saying about me or the business i work in)---i am just honest after an audition, and try and cut a deal like anyone else. I will delineate further--if they say list only, then I don't take the product. There is no obligation for me to pay retail which holds my end of the bargain??--hell, it is a suggested MSRP right? This is totally different than walking in and knowlingly not going to walk out with a product. I am giving a dealer a chance, and want a fair price. I know I may pay more, but I value service as well.

Your intention argument is way off based of my argument---i am saying a person who already is intending to buy a product uses the store for auditions, then buys used. It has nothing to do with potential sales. He wants an amp, and is already going to buy something. I agree that I may audition higher priced equipment, and some day may get it...however, that is completely differenct from what I am saying.

Also, its funny that you support the dealer arrangement and relationships, but don't support my argument hence supporting this exploitation of honest dealers. It is almost contradictory.



All,

It is unfair to disclose bad dealers in your argument. That begs the question imho. No one wants to deal with a bad dealer.

Also, comparing this to Borders is again outside the realm of my point--someone doesn't walk into Borders, start reading a magazine, and goes to buy it used instead. The car industry is even further from my point--i am talking about someone who has defined he has a need, and exploits the dealer for his own good. You don't go test drive a new car, then go buy a 99 edition. You go to the ads and find a 99 to go see for sale right?

FYI- Aaron, you are right---stores will treat you bad if they see you as a tire-kicker. I have long term relationships with several dealers, and that is because I like their service, help, and advice. FWIW- I don't pay near list, but still get all the service. Best of both worlds eh?

Last thing---so many people should have a dealer and don't know it. After seeing so many badly setup systems, a dealer could be of real use to them. I talked to a new dealer today who actually will come and setup your speakers at home as well as recommend room treatments and provide optimal setup. Now that's something I would pay for, and I intend to stop by this weekend and see what they have for a new HT speaker system.

 

[Patrick TX]

Wow, what a bunch of differing opinions! Here's mine. Since the advent of the Internet(thanks Al), the rules are changing in ALL facets of business. My family is/was in the new/used Auto business. Used to be, one could make $$$ on a new car. Well, now people are educated and connected. We can find the cost, find who sold it for that, negotiate the deal, and call out crappy models & dealers. The money is in tote-the-note places now days. Bad credit cases NEED help, and dictate nothing. Can they do that on a Bentley, probably not. Same goes for the super high end audio stuff. The masses are not buying Bentleys & Mark Levinson. More like Toyota/Chevy & Sony/Denon. People can buy damn near ANYTHING today sitting in their UNDERWEAR. Same goes for Audio / Video. It USED to be you had to get smooth BENT OVER back in the day, or risk giving your HARD EARNED MONEY to some greaser in a NJ warehouse. Where did you find that scam artist? In the back of a HiFi magazine of course! Did you ever read one single negative thing about all the people they hosed, no. The mags just want the Ad money. They don't give a rats @$$ about you, either do the greasers, or the HiFi people. The markup on this stuff is beyond ridiculous! I just paid $999 NEW for a $3,200 Yamaha RX-V1, from an AUTHORIZED DEALER. I wish someone could tell me why I should have taken that $2,200 & given it to a stranger. Better yet, explain it to my Wife & Kids.

 

[DanaA]

And that is why some dealers treat walk-in customers that they don't know like crap, because all too often they know or at least feel that they're in there not to buy, but just look or demo. A recent visit to a local dealer illustrates this. When I first went into the store with my daughter, the sales rep I was dealing with seemed arrogant as all get out. My daughter even commented, when we were alone, that he seemed to be such a snob. I knew going in what product I intended to buy and, once the rep sensed this, he warmed up immediately. Now, here's where the extra money comes in. The cost of the unit I wanted was about $1500. I had heard of several people on this forum getting it for as low as $1250. If he had insisted that I pay full list price for it, I would have walked. Instead, he first said that they'd be willing to come out and callibrate my system and set it up for me. He also asked what price I'd buy it for. I answered $1350. The fact of the matter is that, despite the fact that I knew I could talk him down more, I also knew that it would benefit me, in the long run, to build a decent, fair relationship with the store. Since then, they've called, again asking if there's anything they can do to help me out with my setup. They also give me a ton of very insightful, valuable information when I walk into their shop. It's a very friendly relationship. Furthermore, they've told me that, in the future, they'll get me what I want at an excellent discount. I shop online for a lot of stuff, but this relationship, in the end, is going to prove invaluable. If anything, to avoid costly mistakes in what I purchase. They're very comfortable with me coming in just to audition something, because they know that, down the line, I might buy from them again. But, I'm digressing in a major way. Keith's original post was about just using the dealer with no intention of ever buying from them. If you take up their time, I think you should at least go in with an open mind that if they're willing to offer you a reasonable deal (albeit, perhaps not as good as you can find elsewhere), then you should at least give them the shot at making a sale to you. Some are arguing that they might save some extra bucks online, but don't forget all of the stories of damaged goods arriving or goods not arriving at all or of cold uninformed customer care reps that can't or won't help you with products after the purchase. Haven't we all heard, "Once they have your money..." before. Well, a lot of the more specialized stores won't deal with you this way. You might be able to build a trusting, mutually beneficial relationship like the good old days. Again, and this might seem like a contradiction, I will still shop online for things I can't find locally or things I know I want anyway, but, when I go into a specialty store, I won't pretend to be interested in buying from them, if I'm not. If I'm just looking around, I'll tell them. I won't make them spend an hour with me auditioning and setting up stuff, if I already know I'm going to buy elsewhere.

 

[Patrick TX]

I feel the same way. I have shopped locally in the past on some Def Tech stuff. There was a buy one, get one 1/2 off sale going. I bought, and got $100 off the center, as well as $100 off the surrounds. I was pleased, and thus began a relationship locally. I will ALWAYS give them a chance at my business. Many times, they give a minor discount. Many times I pass, & buy online. Recently, I auditioned MANY different speakers at about 7 HiFi shops. I even have a relative that works at Tweeter locally. There were only 2 that were really willing to negotiate. One dealer even told me that there was not enough "profit" on a pair of Paradigm Reference 100's! Funny, because I know what I can buy them for online, & there's enough cheese for everyone on these! So what did I do? I went to my local guy, and auditioned a pair of speakers that BOTH of us knew I could buy cheaper from the relative (who he knows). Was he a jerk about it, nope. He treated me with class & respect, as I AM a customer of that store in the past. I bought nothing, and went on a business trip to Houston. I auditioned a pair of B&W's at a "store" there. I asked about a package discount, & they actually laughed! Talk about a bunch of pompous AHOLES. I strolled out of there, in love with what I'd heard. I was also puckering up, as my ears were not letting my frugality win this battle. I called my LOCAL guy, & he said "well, did you buy from your relative"? I explained about the B&W's, & told him he had ONE SHOT to get my business. He hit me at $2500 for the setup, $1000 off of retail, over the phone. I marched in there Saturday, gave him a deposit, & they will be here next week. I'm HAPPY, he made a $2,500 sale, & the local store kept a customer.

 

[MikeAlletto]

Just because a local dealer has a product you like and want to buy doesn't mean the buyer has any obligation to buy from that dealer. The dealer's service is not just selling a product, they are also providing another service of showing the public what is out there. Its up to the seller to prove themselves to the buyer as to why they should buy it from them. If the buyer had no intention from the beginning to buy it from them then you can't really say any money was lost, only time. In our situations we are all the buyers and we all must try and get the best deal we can, if that means using a seller just for auditions then I'm fine with that. I'm not out there to make the seller happy, I'm here to make myself happy, such is the way of buying and selling EVERYTHING. Its the way the game is played.

 

[Steve_Ma]

Keith,

I wouldn't say the topic is going nowhere just because people might not share your opinion on the subject. It's a good discussion. It seems that some people are really interested in this topic and its natural progression. I know I am.

After re-reading your above post, it still does not change my opinion on the matter. Sales is sales. That's what they are in business for. As long as you’re inside the shop, there is the opportunity for a sale. Maybe down the road if not right away. By walking into the shop (regardless of the immediate intentions), you are still giving the dealer the opportunity to meet with you, develop a relationship, and build his network. The good dealer knows about potential sales and how relationships can lead to a deal later on. However, if the prospect NEVER walks in the door there is no chance for a sale at any point. There is no chance to develop a relationship and to build a network. A snob of a dealer who can't give you the time of day or treats you like a "tire-kicker" deserves what they get or rather what they don't get.

--Steve

 

[Kevin L K]

There are actually people who think going to a B&M shop just to educate themselves about a particular component(s)with no intention of buying said items is ethically wrong?!?! That's the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a long long time. I have been in sales in the past(automobiles)and a LARGE chunk of my job was just giving test-drives and educating people about the car--which in turn builds relationships. Was I upset that they did not purchase the car from me or that they ended up purchasing it from a different dealer/salesman? Yes--BUT THAT WAS PART OF MY JOB,and if I didn't like it I needed to choose a different profession.ANYBODY has the absolute right to purchase goods from anyone/anybody they choose regardless of whether or not they have taken up somebody's "precious" time.It's called SALES--you win some and you loose some.Maybe,just maybe down the line that lost customer will remember your kindness and make a future purchase from you or recommend you to someone who WILL buy something from you--" I know a great guy that took a lot of time with me and answered all of my questions-you should ask for him ".I had a tremendous amount of repeat business because of this exact same scenario.I am not talking about someone who comes in week after week after week and monopolizes and abuses your time--there are limits--as in everything else.That's the cost of doing business--you have your gains and you have your losses.

I don't mean to sound harsh but thinking that is ethically wrong is incredibly naive,unrealistic and very off-base these days.Just my opinion of course.

 

[Matt Jesty]

if that means using a seller just for auditions then I'm fine with that. I'm not out there to make the seller happy, I'm here to make myself happy, such is the way of buying and selling EVERYTHING. Its the way the game is played.
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At least untill there are few (or none)left in your area to "play" it with...................
I'm never upset that someone bought a product down the street at another dealer...It just seems that being punished for having higher overhead because we maintain listening stations for Link Removed seems a bit unfair...you justify it to yourself ,I just rue the thought of fewer and fewer places to audition audio equipment as more and more chinese schlock is e-marketed to a customer who has READ all there is to hear about audio..
$.02

 

[Mike Veroukis]

I refuse to buy locally anymore. I'll go online or ship it in from another state if I can get it cheaper, but I'll use local to look at pieces to decide whether I want to buy or not.

Do you at least offer your local dealer the chance to price match the on-line price?

I'm pretty confident that I can walk into any respectable dealership (this means no BestBuys or FutureShops) and get a better price then you could find online. It's easy, find a store that you trust, find a salesman that you're comfortable with and deal with them exclusively. And make it clear to them that you will continue to do business with them as long as they give you the best deals around. If they say no go elsewhere, but 9 times out of 10 they will go along. Of course it always helps to price match with their competitors but I would always allow them to beat their price.

You can never negotiate prices on line, and quite often you lose out on warranty. The best thing about local dealers is the service they provide, so I think it's worth to spend a little extra if you have to buy local. Hell, when I decided to sell my receiver to buy a newer one, my friendly dealer actually spoke with the would-be buyer and convinved him what I was selling was a good reliable product for a fair price. Now that's service!

That's my view. It's not a matter of ethics really, it just makes sense to me.

Anyway, like I said I have a good rapport with a dealer here in town and he's told me that he knows that most people who ask him detailed questions have no intention of buying there. However, it's his job to inform the public on the products and hopefully make the sale. If people decide to buy on line then it's their loss.

- Mike

 

[Mike Veroukis]

you justify it to yourself ,I just rue the thought of fewer and fewer places to audition audio equipment as more and more chinese schlock is e-marketed to a customer who has READ all there is to hear about audio..

VERY good point! Well said! I would never buy anything unless I see it and hear it live and in person. Thank god there's a couple of places in town with paradigms on display, otherwise I'd be stuck with places like FutureShop and I'd be missing out in the end BIG TIME! I love my studio 40's and you'll never find those at your big box home electronics stores like FutureShop/BestBuy.

Support your small-time dealerships and they will support you.

- Mike

 

[Rob Rodier]

I will admit that I have not followed this thread. However, I feel it is highly un-ethical to audition locally and buy online.

Those who do are killing our hobby.

FYI, a good dealer will provide much better consultations than this forum. I LOVE this forum, but it should be utilized as post-purchase support/discussion.

Anyone who has ever dealt with a real pro will agree.

thats IMO.

-rob

 

[felix_suwarno]

i go to borders to preview books, and buy it at half.com. i do that all the time.

 

[Matt Jesty]

i go to borders to preview books, and buy it at half.com. i do that all the time.
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iF NOT BEING ABLE TO PREVIEW BOOKS in their store, because they have gone out of buisness, is no loss to you, then don't worry...If you find this service to be of benifit to you then it would probably be a good idea to do your part in keeping them around...no judgements just common sense...
Every good mid to hi-fi shop will usually have a few salesmen that have hooked up hundreds and hundreds of differant systems(real world ,practical experiance) and their advice can prove to be almost as important as being able to do a blind A/B comparison of competitive equipment.

 

[Henry_W]

Kieth - my apologies for not being clearer in my response - I did not mean to be off topic, so here goes. If a retailer (dealer) offers a free to the public listening room it is explicitly ethically to use that room and buy elsewhere. There is no moral issue with accepting something that is free.
Rob - yes, a 'good' dealer is very valuable. That does not take away from the kernals of value you find from the non 'pros' prior to purchasing. Nor does your position address the effect of a 'bad' dealer's advice (bad 'expert' advice is far more damaging and generally expensive).
That said I do look for the good dealer, I discount the bad and shop online when I think it is the best option. I refuse to take personal responsibility for destroying our hobby...

 

[Matt Jesty]

I refuse to take personal responsibility for destroying our hobby...
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I agree, It's always someone elses problem/fault......

 

[Patrick TX]

Man, I need to shop where you're shopping! My local dealers will not / cannot get down in the mud pricewise. Even Tweeter, who buys trailer load quantities, freight prepaid won't come close to matching some of the AUTHORIZED INTERNET DEALERS pricing.
How many people could walk in to their local brick & mortar & buy an HK AVR8000 for what onecall had it for 2 weeks ago? Howsabout a $999 Yamaha RX-V1, or a $699 AVR-3802?
My point is, always TRY to give them a shot. If they pass, then that's on THEM. Also, call the Manufacturer BEFORE you buy online, & verify Warranty coverage. Be honest as to what you plan on doing, unless you know that you are breaking a manufacturers rule.
There are MANY laws that protect the consumer regarding manufacturers refusing warranty. If push comes to shove, you will get serviced.

 

[Matt Jesty]

The RXV1 YOU COULD PROBABLY FIND IN A b&M AROUND THAT PRICE WITH THE 2 YEAR WARRANTY,DEFECTIVE, EXCHANGE/LEMON POLICIES,
AND TRADE-IN OPTIONS...The Denon, likely not which is why one of the largest buying groups in the industry is considering dropping Denon as a vendor....."You want to sell it on-line, go ahead"..........It is the threat of critical listening comparisons that keeps some mnfgrs focused on sound quality, remove those comparisons from the equazion and feature sets rule the day..........

 

[Mike Veroukis]

Man, I need to shop where you're shopping!

Heh, well, it took me a while to find the right place. But the funny thing is, not only do I shop there but now so do all of my friends. Basically this is a smart dealer who played his cards right from the beginning. He now enjoys the repeat business of me and my friends. We walk in there and he gives us the discount price right away. An example: Studio 100's list at $2999. My cousin got them for $2100 with the veneer. That's around USD$1350. How much do 100's retail for in the US?

- Mike

 

[Patrick TX]

That is the exception not the norm, IMHO.